Re: Turmoil Continues in XP land

[Bill in Co.]

Bill Blanton wrote:
> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:OTODKczzIHA.5108@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> PCR wrote:
>>> Bill Blanton wrote:
>>>> "PCR" <pcrrcp@netzero.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:ObJvEPpzIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Bill Blanton wrote:
>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:ezMUmjZzIHA.2064@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One can also install Microsoft's Virtual PC, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allegedly allows you to run Win98SE (or some other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operating systems)
>>>>
>>>>>> Software-wise there isn't much difference. You are however confined
>>>>>> to the emulated hardware of the virtual machine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think the partition would be fake-- just a simulation! You'd
>>>>>>>>>> never be able to do normal maintenance on it, like a scandisk &
>>>>>>>>>> defrag-- I don't think!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, the disk structure is emulated just as a real disk. You can
>>>>>> scandisk, defrag,
>>>>>> go in and muck around witht the partition tables or boot sectors,
>>>>>> install a boot manager, muti-boot, whatever..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> That's an excellent emulation, then. But how can that be? Are you be
>>>>> able to boot to DOS or to a Starup Diskette to do that? I thought
>>>>> WinXP couldn't! Or is this done from some sort of CD boot to a
>>>>> repair console?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, you can boot to a boot floppy or CD. Real or virtual. I've got a
>>>> folder full of virtual boot media. (much faster booting than the real
>>>> thing) It's a PC as far as the OS is concerned, and boots the same way.
>>>> The
>>>> virtual BIOS loads the MBR, the MBR loads the boot sector, which loads
>>>> Windows.
>>>>
>>>> The virtual hadr disk is one big file on the host machine. Copying
>>>> the file is analogous to cloning your HD.
>>>
>>> That's very impressive. But the BIOS is virtual too?
>>
>> Is it really? How so?
>
> Press/Tap the <DEL> key real quick as the virtual machine is booting to
> gain access to the BIOS -)
>
> There's not as much config in there as most BIOSs. But there is IDE boot
> order, IDE device config settings. password config, pwer management
> (IIRC)..
> some other basic stuff.... clock...
>
>
>> Well, maybe it's in the terminology used here ("virtual BIOS") -(whatever
>> that means). (Probably some part of RAM is set aside for updating some
>> address pointers and data normally used by the regular BIOS, I guess,
>> like
>> shadowing - but apparently(?) needing to be changed to run VPC, but I
>> don't understand why that would even be necessary).
>
> Not really. The BIOS is just code that is burned into a chip, and is
> loaded into memory when you power on. And so, the virtual BIOS is code
> that runs and loads
> when you start the VPC. > Load software interrupts, etc..

So when you boot up to start VPC, you're initially NOT in a windows
environment, but are first loading that "new" BIOS (read from somewhere on
the disk, presumably some code written in the VPC'ed partition area of the
HD) into RAM, after which Windows THEN comes up - in VPC mode?

But (I gather) its some code written in a VPC loader on the HD somewhere
that gets copied to RAM memory, and then that loads in place of the normal
BIOS? So you mean once you boot up into VPC, the regular (non VPC) BIOS
code is inactive (and was never actually loaded)?


>>
>>> So, even this BIOS
>>> won't work, until you've boot to XP first & began the Win98 simulation?
>>
>> Why wouldn't the BIOS work (or change, for that matter)? The real BIOS
>> is
>> hard-coded in ROM or EEPROM (AFAIK), and never changes, UNLESS you flash
>> update it.
>>> Only then can you boot a Startup Disk to the virtual Win98, I guess.
>>
>> And that startup disk can be a Flash Drive, which is really nice and
>> fast.
>>
>>> But, very impressive how XP has completely swallowed Win98 & even the
>>> BIOS!
>>
>> Swallowing the BIOS? I don't think so!
>
> Right, your own BIOS has nothing to do with a virtual emulation of the
> same.

But is there any remnants of the normal BIOS that was ever loaded (which
possibly supplements the VPC loaded BIOS stuff)?

 

[Bill Blanton]

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:Oh1OcQD0IHA.4492@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Bill Blanton wrote:
>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:OTODKczzIHA.5108@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>> PCR wrote:
>>>> Bill Blanton wrote:
>>>>> "PCR" <pcrrcp@netzero.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:ObJvEPpzIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Bill Blanton wrote:
>>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:ezMUmjZzIHA.2064@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One can also install Microsoft's Virtual PC, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allegedly allows you to run Win98SE (or some other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operating systems)
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Software-wise there isn't much difference. You are however confined
>>>>>>> to the emulated hardware of the virtual machine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think the partition would be fake-- just a simulation! You'd
>>>>>>>>>>> never be able to do normal maintenance on it, like a scandisk &
>>>>>>>>>>> defrag-- I don't think!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, the disk structure is emulated just as a real disk. You can
>>>>>>> scandisk, defrag,
>>>>>>> go in and muck around witht the partition tables or boot sectors,
>>>>>>> install a boot manager, muti-boot, whatever..
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> That's an excellent emulation, then. But how can that be? Are you be
>>>>>> able to boot to DOS or to a Starup Diskette to do that? I thought
>>>>>> WinXP couldn't! Or is this done from some sort of CD boot to a
>>>>>> repair console?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, you can boot to a boot floppy or CD. Real or virtual. I've got a
>>>>> folder full of virtual boot media. (much faster booting than the real
>>>>> thing) It's a PC as far as the OS is concerned, and boots the same way. The
>>>>> virtual BIOS loads the MBR, the MBR loads the boot sector, which loads
>>>>> Windows.
>>>>>
>>>>> The virtual hadr disk is one big file on the host machine. Copying
>>>>> the file is analogous to cloning your HD.
>>>>
>>>> That's very impressive. But the BIOS is virtual too?
>>>
>>> Is it really? How so?
>>
>> Press/Tap the <DEL> key real quick as the virtual machine is booting to gain access to the BIOS -)
>>
>> There's not as much config in there as most BIOSs. But there is IDE boot
>> order, IDE device config settings. password config, pwer management (IIRC)..
>> some other basic stuff.... clock...
>>
>>
>>> Well, maybe it's in the terminology used here ("virtual BIOS") -(whatever
>>> that means). (Probably some part of RAM is set aside for updating some
>>> address pointers and data normally used by the regular BIOS, I guess, like
>>> shadowing - but apparently(?) needing to be changed to run VPC, but I don't understand why that would even be necessary).
>>
>> Not really. The BIOS is just code that is burned into a chip, and is loaded into memory when you power on. And so, the virtual
>> BIOS is code that runs and loads
>> when you start the VPC. > Load software interrupts, etc..
>
> So when you boot up to start VPC, you're initially NOT in a windows
> environment, but are first loading that "new" BIOS (read from somewhere on
> the disk, presumably some code written in the VPC'ed partition area of the
> HD) into RAM, after which Windows THEN comes up - in VPC mode?

No, VPC is a program that runs within Windows. You boot Windows, run VPC,
run your virtual machine.

The virtual BIOS is loaded by the program VPC, the virtual hard disk
is a file on your physical HD.

The virtual BIOS or the virtual devices don't in any way supersede
or interfere with your real devices. They only exist within the
virtual machine process. The OS is installed on the virtual machine,
and when it calls an interrupt, or accesses a port or device, it is
calling within that "process space" owned by VPC. The virtual machine
responds.

Kinda' like "DOS in a window. "DOS" calls a BIOS interrupt or accesses a port,
and Windows intercepts and returns. Actually, now thinking about it, that
is somewhat a form of virtualization.


> But (I gather) its some code written in a VPC loader on the HD somewhere
> that gets copied to RAM memory, and then that loads in place of the normal
> BIOS? So you mean once you boot up into VPC, the regular (non VPC) BIOS
> code is inactive (and was never actually loaded)?

Check it out Bill. It's a free -) , (and a very non-invasive program.)

It takes a little getting used to the concept, but once you laod up a couple
of operating systems it makes sense.

 

[Bill in Co.]

Bill Blanton wrote:
> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Oh1OcQD0IHA.4492@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> Bill Blanton wrote:
>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>> news:OTODKczzIHA.5108@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>> Bill Blanton wrote:
>>>>>> "PCR" <pcrrcp@netzero.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:ObJvEPpzIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> Bill Blanton wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:ezMUmjZzIHA.2064@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One can also install Microsoft's Virtual PC, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allegedly allows you to run Win98SE (or some other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operating systems)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Software-wise there isn't much difference. You are however confined
>>>>>>>> to the emulated hardware of the virtual machine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the partition would be fake-- just a simulation! You'd
>>>>>>>>>>>> never be able to do normal maintenance on it, like a scandisk &
>>>>>>>>>>>> defrag-- I don't think!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, the disk structure is emulated just as a real disk. You can
>>>>>>>> scandisk, defrag,
>>>>>>>> go in and muck around witht the partition tables or boot sectors,
>>>>>>>> install a boot manager, muti-boot, whatever..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's an excellent emulation, then. But how can that be? Are you be
>>>>>>> able to boot to DOS or to a Starup Diskette to do that? I thought
>>>>>>> WinXP couldn't! Or is this done from some sort of CD boot to a
>>>>>>> repair console?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, you can boot to a boot floppy or CD. Real or virtual. I've got a
>>>>>> folder full of virtual boot media. (much faster booting than the real
>>>>>> thing) It's a PC as far as the OS is concerned, and boots the same
>>>>>> way.
>>>>>> The virtual BIOS loads the MBR, the MBR loads the boot sector, which
>>>>>> loads Windows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The virtual hadr disk is one big file on the host machine. Copying
>>>>>> the file is analogous to cloning your HD.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's very impressive. But the BIOS is virtual too?
>>>>
>>>> Is it really? How so?
>>>
>>> Press/Tap the <DEL> key real quick as the virtual machine is booting to
>>> gain access to the BIOS -) There's not as much config in there as most
>>> BIOSs. But there is IDE boot
>>> order, IDE device config settings. password config, pwer management
>>> (IIRC)..
>>> some other basic stuff.... clock...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Well, maybe it's in the terminology used here ("virtual
>>>> BIOS") -(whatever
>>>> that means). (Probably some part of RAM is set aside for updating some
>>>> address pointers and data normally used by the regular BIOS, I guess,
>>>> like
>>>> shadowing - but apparently(?) needing to be changed to run VPC, but I
>>>> don't understand why that would even be necessary).
>>>
>>> Not really. The BIOS is just code that is burned into a chip, and is
>>> loaded
>>> into memory when you power on. And so, the virtual BIOS is code that
>>> runs
>>> and loads when you start the VPC. Load software interrupts, etc..
>>
>> So when you boot up to start VPC, you're initially NOT in a windows
>> environment, but are first loading that "new" BIOS (read from somewhere
>> on
>> the disk, presumably some code written in the VPC'ed partition area of
>> the
>> HD) into RAM, after which Windows THEN comes up - in VPC mode?
>
> No, VPC is a program that runs within Windows. You boot Windows, run VPC,
> run your virtual machine.
>
> The virtual BIOS is loaded by the program VPC, the virtual hard disk
> is a file on your physical HD.
>
> The virtual BIOS or the virtual devices don't in any way supersede
> or interfere with your real devices. They only exist within the
> virtual machine process. The OS is installed on the virtual machine,
> and when it calls an interrupt, or accesses a port or device, it is
> calling within that "process space" owned by VPC. The virtual machine
> responds.
>
> Kinda' like "DOS in a window. "DOS" calls a BIOS interrupt or accesses a
> port,
> and Windows intercepts and returns. Actually, now thinking about it, that
> is somewhat a form of virtualization.

Interesting... I guess it is like running DOS in a window.
And in that case, any "BIOS calls" are (I gather) intercepted by code loaded
into memory by VPC and then taken over or redirected, so that the REAL BIOS
(in EEPROM) is never actually called on for any lo level function calls or
interrup service routines, etc, I gather (at least after the machine has
*initially* booted up).

>> But (I gather) its some code written in a VPC loader on the HD somewhere
>> that gets copied to RAM memory, and then that loads in place of the
>> normal
>> BIOS? So you mean once you boot up into VPC, the regular (non VPC) BIOS
>> code is inactive (and was never actually loaded)?
>
> Check it out Bill. It's a free -) , (and a very non-invasive program.)

Well, so far I haven't thought I've had any use for it. But, who knows!

And last time I checked, I think it was like around a 60MB(??) download
(can't recall), which would take 6 hours to come in here for me on dialup,
but, maybe I'll do it, if I get motivated! (it would help for me to have
a real need, though)

> It takes a little getting used to the concept, but once you load up a
> couple
> of operating systems it makes sense.

Yeah. Except for right now, XP seems sufficient for me (with some
occasional use of my Win98SE and DOS computer, but time will tell. .

 

[Bill Blanton]

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:%23U2IloP0IHA.4964@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Bill Blanton wrote:
>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:Oh1OcQD0IHA.4492@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>> Bill Blanton wrote:
>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:OTODKczzIHA.5108@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>> Bill Blanton wrote:
>>>>>>> "PCR" <pcrrcp@netzero.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:ObJvEPpzIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> Bill Blanton wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:ezMUmjZzIHA.2064@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One can also install Microsoft's Virtual PC, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allegedly allows you to run Win98SE (or some other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operating systems)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Software-wise there isn't much difference. You are however confined
>>>>>>>>> to the emulated hardware of the virtual machine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the partition would be fake-- just a simulation! You'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>> never be able to do normal maintenance on it, like a scandisk &
>>>>>>>>>>>>> defrag-- I don't think!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, the disk structure is emulated just as a real disk. You can
>>>>>>>>> scandisk, defrag,
>>>>>>>>> go in and muck around witht the partition tables or boot sectors,
>>>>>>>>> install a boot manager, muti-boot, whatever..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's an excellent emulation, then. But how can that be? Are you be
>>>>>>>> able to boot to DOS or to a Starup Diskette to do that? I thought
>>>>>>>> WinXP couldn't! Or is this done from some sort of CD boot to a
>>>>>>>> repair console?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, you can boot to a boot floppy or CD. Real or virtual. I've got a
>>>>>>> folder full of virtual boot media. (much faster booting than the real
>>>>>>> thing) It's a PC as far as the OS is concerned, and boots the same way.
>>>>>>> The virtual BIOS loads the MBR, the MBR loads the boot sector, which
>>>>>>> loads Windows.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The virtual hadr disk is one big file on the host machine. Copying
>>>>>>> the file is analogous to cloning your HD.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's very impressive. But the BIOS is virtual too?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it really? How so?
>>>>
>>>> Press/Tap the <DEL> key real quick as the virtual machine is booting to
>>>> gain access to the BIOS -) There's not as much config in there as most BIOSs. But there is IDE boot
>>>> order, IDE device config settings. password config, pwer management (IIRC)..
>>>> some other basic stuff.... clock...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Well, maybe it's in the terminology used here ("virtual BIOS") -(whatever
>>>>> that means). (Probably some part of RAM is set aside for updating some
>>>>> address pointers and data normally used by the regular BIOS, I guess, like
>>>>> shadowing - but apparently(?) needing to be changed to run VPC, but I
>>>>> don't understand why that would even be necessary).
>>>>
>>>> Not really. The BIOS is just code that is burned into a chip, and is loaded
>>>> into memory when you power on. And so, the virtual BIOS is code that runs
>>>> and loads when you start the VPC. Load software interrupts, etc..
>>>
>>> So when you boot up to start VPC, you're initially NOT in a windows
>>> environment, but are first loading that "new" BIOS (read from somewhere on
>>> the disk, presumably some code written in the VPC'ed partition area of the
>>> HD) into RAM, after which Windows THEN comes up - in VPC mode?
>>
>> No, VPC is a program that runs within Windows. You boot Windows, run VPC,
>> run your virtual machine.
>>
>> The virtual BIOS is loaded by the program VPC, the virtual hard disk
>> is a file on your physical HD.
>>
>> The virtual BIOS or the virtual devices don't in any way supersede
>> or interfere with your real devices. They only exist within the
>> virtual machine process. The OS is installed on the virtual machine,
>> and when it calls an interrupt, or accesses a port or device, it is
>> calling within that "process space" owned by VPC. The virtual machine
>> responds.
>>
>> Kinda' like "DOS in a window. "DOS" calls a BIOS interrupt or accesses a port,
>> and Windows intercepts and returns. Actually, now thinking about it, that
>> is somewhat a form of virtualization.
>
> Interesting... I guess it is like running DOS in a window.
> And in that case, any "BIOS calls" are (I gather) intercepted by code loaded into memory by VPC and then taken over or redirected,
> so that the REAL BIOS (in EEPROM) is never actually called on for any lo level function calls or interrup service routines, etc, I
> gather (at least after the machine has *initially* booted up).

Right. Just like any Windows program, VPC calls on Windows to do the dirty
hardware work. The easiest example is the virtual hard drive. The OS installed
in the virtual machine writes to the HD just as it would if "real". VPC takes
the call and directs Windows to write to the virtual hard disk (*.vhd) file.

The virtual OS is a child process of the virtual machine, so everything
must go through the VM

I mentioned "DOS run under Windows" as an example, but it is a little different.
In that case the host Windows is aware of the fact that DOS/command.com is
running and itself intercepts the calls to hardware, whereas in VPC's case it
is a middleman between the two.