Re: [News] Many Lies About Wine Debunked

M

Moshe Goldfarb.

On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:41:01 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Debunking the Debunked WINE Myths
>
> ,----[ Quote ]
>| Myth 1: "Wine is slow because it is an emulator"

Wine is slow because it is WINE and not native Microsoft code.
It is written by basement boys in their spare time.

>| [...]
>|
>| Myth 2: "Wine is bad for Linux"

Linux is bad for Wine.
It pollutes the taste....


>| [...]
>|
>| Myth 3: "Emulators like VMWare are better"


They are assuming you aren't too cheap to pay for them, like most Linux
users are.

|
>| [...]
>|
>| Myth 4: "You need Windows anyway"

Yep.

Legally....


|
>| [...]
>|
>| Myth 5: "Wine is bad, Winelib is better"

Who cares?
You just gave a perfect reason not to run Wine.
Nobody can figure it out.


|
>| [...]
>|
>| Myth 6: "Wine will always be playing catch up to Windows and can't possibly
>| succeed at running new applications"

15+ years and still the website says not for mission critical applications.
That says it all.


|

--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
 
C

Charlie Tame

Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:41:01 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Debunking the Debunked WINE Myths
>>
>> ,----[ Quote ]
>> | Myth 1: "Wine is slow because it is an emulator"
>
> Wine is slow because it is WINE and not native Microsoft code.



Please explain what Microsoft Native Code is?

Which CPU is made by Microsoft?
 
C

Charlie Tame

Roy Schestowitz wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> ____/ Charlie Tame on Sunday 27 July 2008 13:09 : \____
>
>> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
>>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:41:01 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>>
>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>
>>>> Debunking the Debunked WINE Myths
>>>>
>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>> | Myth 1: "Wine is slow because it is an emulator"
>>> Wine is slow because it is WINE and not native Microsoft code.
>>
>>
>> Please explain what Microsoft Native Code is?
>>
>> Which CPU is made by Microsoft?
>
> Gary M Stewart (pseudonym "Goldfarb") is just try to harass other newsgroup.
> Simply ignore or killfile those posts.
>
> Here is how Microsoft itself explains the likes of Stewart the Munchkin:
>
> 'Use [...] the Internet, etc. to heighten the impression that the enemy is
> desperate, demoralized, defeated, [...] associated with mental deficiency,
> as in, "he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny". Just keep rubbing
> it in, via the [...] newsgroups, [...] make the complete failure of the
> competition's technology part of the mythology of the computer industry.'
>
> (reference PDF pages 45 & 55 on
> http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf - Comes vs Microsoft lawsuit )
>
> - --
> ~~ Best of wishes
>
> Roy S. Schestowitz | Holey (sic) Cow! Longhorn is full of holes...
> http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
> Swap: 4088500k total, 254840k used, 3833660k free, 687532k cached
> http://iuron.com - next generation of search paradigms
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkiMg2gACgkQU4xAY3RXLo67KQCdE2DYYzDkDkRdKmikQPo7XJrl
> wm0AoKEOKC978NhfnC7QKg7e5tmAOwga
> =p4SN
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Oh I know that, was just interested in this new technology he seems to
have suddenly invented...
 
R

Roy Schestowitz

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

____/ Charlie Tame on Sunday 27 July 2008 13:09 : \____

> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:41:01 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> Debunking the Debunked WINE Myths
>>>
>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>> | Myth 1: "Wine is slow because it is an emulator"
>>
>> Wine is slow because it is WINE and not native Microsoft code.
>
>
>
> Please explain what Microsoft Native Code is?
>
> Which CPU is made by Microsoft?

Gary M Stewart (pseudonym "Goldfarb") is just try to harass other newsgroup.
Simply ignore or killfile those posts.

Here is how Microsoft itself explains the likes of Stewart the Munchkin:

'Use [...] the Internet, etc. to heighten the impression that the enemy is
desperate, demoralized, defeated, [...] associated with mental deficiency,
as in, "he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny". Just keep rubbing
it in, via the [...] newsgroups, [...] make the complete failure of the
competition's technology part of the mythology of the computer industry.'

(reference PDF pages 45 & 55 on
http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf - Comes vs Microsoft lawsuit )

- --
~~ Best of wishes

Roy S. Schestowitz | Holey (sic) Cow! Longhorn is full of holes...
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Swap: 4088500k total, 254840k used, 3833660k free, 687532k cached
http://iuron.com - next generation of search paradigms
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkiMg2gACgkQU4xAY3RXLo67KQCdE2DYYzDkDkRdKmikQPo7XJrl
wm0AoKEOKC978NhfnC7QKg7e5tmAOwga
=p4SN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
7

7

Windows Developers MUST write software for WINE 1.0 Compliance

Micoshaft asstroturfing fraudster pounding the sock Moshe Goldfarb.
wrote on behalf of Half Wits from Micoshaft Department of Marketing:


> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:41:01 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Debunking the Debunked WINE Myths
>>
>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>| Myth 1: "Wine is slow because it is an emulator"
>
> Wine is slow because it is WINE and not native Microsoft code.
> It is written by basement boys in their spare time.


WINE is a lot quicker than you would ever imagine because everything
under Linux is already quick (TM).

http://www.livecdlist.com
http://www.distrowatch.com

If you then add dual core or quad core then you get 2x and 4x speed
improvement of business critical applications.

What the fsck?

YUP!

Because Linus is so good, even running WINDUMMY applications under
EMULATOR like VirtualBox will give you same 2x and 4x speed
improvement UNDER EMULATION!!!!!
So, what is the benefit?
Well windummpy applications run faster, and they run like an
application in a neat little window which you can close down
and control just like any other applications.
And playing videos, music etc - no problem EVEN UNDER EMULATION!!!!

It is just so fscking awesome, you MUST try it!!!

http://www.ubuntu.com
http://www.youtube.com - search for ubuntu, compiz and virtualbox to
see what you misssing out!

And I would strongly urge ALL WINDOWS DEVELOPERS to make their
products run under WINE 1.0 compliance.

Management should pressure WINDOWS DEVELOPERS for WINE 1.0
compliance because micoshaft is forever secretly
changing their APIs to bring down competitor companies.
If your company produces software, then it is beneficial
for you to make sure it installs under WINE 1.0.

If it does install under WINE 1.0,
then it means you are using standard reasonably
well documented and understood APIs, installers, configurations,
etc that is bound to work in a WINDUMMY PC because it works
under WINE 1.0.

And if micoshaft starts its subversive activities, then
for critical customers you just point at Linux and WINE 1.0
to get their applications running and the money still
keeps rolling in.


Management MUST MUST MUST pressure WINDOWS DEVELOPERS for WINE 1.0
compliance to protect their business.
 
M

Moshe Goldfarb.

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:09:19 -0500, Charlie Tame wrote:

> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:41:01 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> Debunking the Debunked WINE Myths
>>>
>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>> | Myth 1: "Wine is slow because it is an emulator"
>>
>> Wine is slow because it is WINE and not native Microsoft code.
>
>
>
> Please explain what Microsoft Native Code is?

Windows code...

> Which CPU is made by Microsoft?

None. thank God :)


--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
 
C

Charlie Tame

Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:09:19 -0500, Charlie Tame wrote:
>
>> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
>>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:41:01 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>>
>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>
>>>> Debunking the Debunked WINE Myths
>>>>
>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>> | Myth 1: "Wine is slow because it is an emulator"
>>> Wine is slow because it is WINE and not native Microsoft code.
>>
>>
>> Please explain what Microsoft Native Code is?
>
> Windows code...
>
>> Which CPU is made by Microsoft?
>
> None. thank God :)
>
>

Windows code these days is often "Compiled" first to "Byte code" when
the program is written and then "Interpreted" from "Byte code" by such
the as .net framework to actual "Native" code the processor can run.
This is rather like writing a program in Java. In that case the Java
Virtual Machine is the "Interpreter" that converts it to the processor's
"Native" code.

Both of these processes are slower than writing something in C++ which
in turn is slower to execute than something written in Assembler for the
processor concerned.

As someone else pointed out running XP or Vista under an emulator like
VirtualBox can be just as fast as running dedicated on the host - quite
surprising since the operating system on the host can be used at the
same time. Some fancy graphics like Aero don't work, but everything else
does, so that kinda questions what overhead Aero places on the system.

Different people will always have different experiences and preferences,
and what suits you will likely not always suit me, although sometimes it
will. Both Windows and Linux varieties can be excellent for some people
in some circumstances, that may vary in other circumstances. Personally
I think learning alternatives is always a good thing. One of the useful
things about Linux (most of them) is that if you have a machine that has
no legal Windows, it's broken or you lost the CD etc, you can still
legally use that machine, for many people that s a useful thing but only
if the know about it. The last thing I would like to see is Microsoft go
down the toilet, but they also don't want their software stolen and I
don't want to steal it. There is no need to do either. That is a good
thing.
 
P

Peter Köhlmann

Charlie Tame wrote:

> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:09:19 -0500, Charlie Tame wrote:
>>
>>> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:41:01 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>>
>>>>> Debunking the Debunked WINE Myths
>>>>>
>>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>>> | Myth 1: "Wine is slow because it is an emulator"
>>>> Wine is slow because it is WINE and not native Microsoft code.
>>>
>>>
>>> Please explain what Microsoft Native Code is?
>>
>> Windows code...
>>
>>> Which CPU is made by Microsoft?
>>
>> None. thank God :)
>>
>>
>
> Windows code these days is often "Compiled" first to "Byte code" when
> the program is written and then "Interpreted" from "Byte code" by such
> the as .net framework to actual "Native" code the processor can run.
> This is rather like writing a program in Java. In that case the Java
> Virtual Machine is the "Interpreter" that converts it to the processor's
> "Native" code.
>
> Both of these processes are slower than writing something in C++

http://kano.net/javabench/data
Old, but still correct

See also here
http://www.ddj.com/cpp/184401976jsessionid=HFBLWPXDMYGIWQSNDLPSKH0CJUNN2JVN?_requestid=471256

There are much more. Most benchmarks say that good Java code /can/
outperform C++

> which
> in turn is slower to execute than something written in Assembler for the
> processor concerned.

That is also an old myth. I have written extensivly in assembler in the
past, and it is still viable when trying to get the smallest possible code.
But it is next to impossible to get /faster/ code overall than for example
writing the same thing in C

< snip >
--
Microsoft's Guide To System Design:
Let it get in YOUR way. The problem for your problem.
 
H

Hadron

Charlie Tame <charlie@tames.net> writes:

> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:09:19 -0500, Charlie Tame wrote:
>>
>>> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:41:01 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>>
>>>>> Debunking the Debunked WINE Myths
>>>>>
>>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>>> | Myth 1: "Wine is slow because it is an emulator"
>>>> Wine is slow because it is WINE and not native Microsoft code.
>>>
>>>
>>> Please explain what Microsoft Native Code is?
>>
>> Windows code...
>>
>>> Which CPU is made by Microsoft?
>>
>> None. thank God :)
>>
>>
>
> Windows code these days is often "Compiled" first to "Byte code" when
> the program is written and then "Interpreted" from "Byte code" by such
> the as .net framework to actual "Native" code the processor can
> run. This is rather like writing a program in Java. In that case the
> Java Virtual Machine is the "Interpreter" that converts it to the
> processor's "Native" code.

Who on earth told you this nonsense?
 
H

Hadron

Peter Köhlmann <peter.koehlmann@arcor.de> writes:

> Charlie Tame wrote:
>
>> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:09:19 -0500, Charlie Tame wrote:
>>>
>>>> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:41:01 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Debunking the Debunked WINE Myths
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>>>> | Myth 1: "Wine is slow because it is an emulator"
>>>>> Wine is slow because it is WINE and not native Microsoft code.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please explain what Microsoft Native Code is?
>>>
>>> Windows code...
>>>
>>>> Which CPU is made by Microsoft?
>>>
>>> None. thank God :)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Windows code these days is often "Compiled" first to "Byte code" when
>> the program is written and then "Interpreted" from "Byte code" by such
>> the as .net framework to actual "Native" code the processor can run.
>> This is rather like writing a program in Java. In that case the Java
>> Virtual Machine is the "Interpreter" that converts it to the processor's
>> "Native" code.
>>
>> Both of these processes are slower than writing something in C++
>
> http://kano.net/javabench/data
> Old, but still correct
>
> See also here
> http://www.ddj.com/cpp/184401976jsessionid=HFBLWPXDMYGIWQSNDLPSKH0CJUNN2JVN?_requestid=471256
>
> There are much more. Most benchmarks say that good Java code /can/
> outperform C++

Sure, if they both call libraries for most of the work and the Java one
is better optimised.

In the same way I could outsprint Carl Lewis if he had both legs chopped
off.

Only someone VERY clueless would EVER thing Java will run faster than
well designed C++.

>
>> which
>> in turn is slower to execute than something written in Assembler for the
>> processor concerned.
>
> That is also an old myth. I have written extensivly in assembler in the
> past, and it is still viable when trying to get the smallest possible code.
> But it is next to impossible to get /faster/ code overall than for example
> writing the same thing in C

One in a million assembler programmers might optimise better than a good
compiler. You are quite correct.

--
"Off the top of my head, I can't tell you which sites. They are ones that
throw up some kind of dialog, I change the user agent and look at them
again, then move on."
-- Rick <none@nomail.com> telling lies in comp.os.linux.advocacy
 
R

Rich

Re: Windows Developers MUST write software for WINE 1.0 Compliance

> If you then add dual core or quad core then you get 2x and 4x speed
> improvement of business critical applications.

heh .. sounds like an OLD Apple computer marketing escapee ..


Rich
 
R

Rich

> Gary M Stewart (pseudonym "Goldfarb") is just try to harass other
> newsgroup.
> Simply ignore or killfile those posts.

Chutzpah ...
You'd know all about this tactic )


Rich
 
R

Rich


> Who on earth told you this nonsense?


It blooms in the brains of these nonsensees magically it seems.
Not to worry, natural selection leaves these fabulist standing alone in the
night on the edges of windblown precipices, blinking endlessly at where
their fate has taken them.


Rich
 
H

HiTech RedNeck

"Moshe Goldfarb." <brick_n_straw@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1x6lm0wnpsd90.1odv6xp4s6sfo$.dlg@40tude.net...

> 15+ years and still the website says not for mission critical
applications.
> That says it all.

As opposed to the typical Microsoft EULA that promises you
ab-so-freakin-lutely nothing but maybe your money back if your program does
nothing but crash (IF you can cajole your retailer into it -- Microsoft will
do nothing for you in such a case if they refuse).

I tried installing the Windows version of Firefox 3.0 under Wine on Hardy.
You'd think an application of that complexity would have big trouble under
Wine, and keep in mind that Firefox has no reason at all to target Wine
since it is also deployed in a Linux flavor. The silly thing just WORKED,
and was even noticeably peppier than its counterpart running on Gen-u-wine
Windoze on the same machine.
 
I

Ignoramus9959

The only app that I may possibly want to use under WINE, is Internet
Explorer version 7. (to check website compatibility).

Is there anyone who was able to successfully install it under WINE?

i
 
H

Hadron

Ignoramus9959 <ignoramus9959@NOSPAM.9959.invalid> writes:

> The only app that I may possibly want to use under WINE, is Internet
> Explorer version 7. (to check website compatibility).
>
> Is there anyone who was able to successfully install it under WINE?
>
> i

Just use ie4linux

Failing that, check out browsershots.org

--
"Well we know Quack is an inveterate liar & troll with no credibility, so
you cannot take *anything* he says as being true."
-- William Poaster showing his love for Hadron despite claiming never to read his posts in comp.os.linux.advocacy
 
I

Ignoramus9959

On 2008-07-28, Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Ignoramus9959 <ignoramus9959@NOSPAM.9959.invalid> writes:
>
>> The only app that I may possibly want to use under WINE, is Internet
>> Explorer version 7. (to check website compatibility).
>>
>> Is there anyone who was able to successfully install it under WINE?
>>
>> i
>
> Just use ie4linux

It does not work.

BLING::~/archive/software/ies4linux-2.99.0.1==>ls
LICENSE README ies4linux lang lib mac ui winereg
BLING::~/archive/software/ies4linux-2.99.0.1==>./ies4linux
IEs4Linux 2 is developed to be used with recent Wine versions (0.9.x). It seems that you are using an old version. It's recommended that you update your wine to the latest version (Go to: winehq.com).

grep: : No such file or directory

Gtk-ERROR **: Unknown segment type: (null)
aborting...
ui/pygtk/python-gtk.sh: line 6: 21454 Aborted python "$IES4LINUX"/ui/pygtk/ies4linux-gtk.py
BLING::~/archive/software/ies4linux-2.99.0.1==>

BLING::~==>wine --version
wine-1.0

> Failing that, check out browsershots.org

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/
 
I

Ignoramus9959

On 2008-07-28, Ignoramus9959 <ignoramus9959@NOSPAM.9959.invalid> wrote:
> On 2008-07-28, Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Ignoramus9959 <ignoramus9959@NOSPAM.9959.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> The only app that I may possibly want to use under WINE, is Internet
>>> Explorer version 7. (to check website compatibility).
>>>
>>> Is there anyone who was able to successfully install it under WINE?
>>>
>>> i
>>
>> Just use ie4linux
>
> It does not work.
>
> BLING::~/archive/software/ies4linux-2.99.0.1==>ls
> LICENSE README ies4linux lang lib mac ui winereg
> BLING::~/archive/software/ies4linux-2.99.0.1==>./ies4linux
> IEs4Linux 2 is developed to be used with recent Wine versions (0.9.x). It seems that you are using an old version. It's recommended that you update your wine to the latest version (Go to: winehq.com).
>
> grep: : No such file or directory
>
> Gtk-ERROR **: Unknown segment type: (null)
> aborting...
> ui/pygtk/python-gtk.sh: line 6: 21454 Aborted python "$IES4LINUX"/ui/pygtk/ies4linux-gtk.py
> BLING::~/archive/software/ies4linux-2.99.0.1==>
>
> BLING::~==>wine --version
> wine-1.0
>

When I ran it the second time, it did work.

I am very happy. I wish it was IE7, but even IE6 is a big help.

Thank you.

I do not feel that I need to use any Windows software in general, but
I need IE for compatibility testing.
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/
 
T

The Ghost In The Machine

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Charlie Tame
<charlie@tames.net>
wrote
on Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:09:19 -0500
<uPsy7n#7IHA.3384@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>:
> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:41:01 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> Debunking the Debunked WINE Myths
>>>
>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>> | Myth 1: "Wine is slow because it is an emulator"
>>
>> Wine is slow because it is WINE and not native Microsoft code.
>
>
>
> Please explain what Microsoft Native Code is?

Microsoft Native Code is code that is run natively using approved
versions of Microsoft Windows(tm).

Except that it isn't. It gets complicated, but all
user-level processes in Microsoft Windows and in Linux
run in emulated hardware, at least as far as the virtual
addressing and illegal instructions are concerned.

WinE emulation will of course extract some performance
because it is not communicating with the device natively.
This performance will not be felt by those using
CPU-intensive tasks, unless said tasks are heavily
utilizing the Win32 et al API.

>
> Which CPU is made by Microsoft?

s/made/approved/

That would be iNtel.

--
#191, ewill3@earthlink.net
Linux makes one use one's mind.
Windows just messes with one's head.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
 
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