Repair Windows XP by using the XP installation CD

[admin_papa]

Hello Everybody

Just wanted to share my new experience.

If your system fails to start due to an error corresponding to missing
HAL.DLL, invalid Boot.ini or any other critical system boot files you
can repair this by using the XP installation CD. Just boot from your XP
Setup CD and enter the Recovery Console. Then run "attrib -H -R -S" on
the C:\Boot.ini file and delete it. Launch "Bootcfg /Rebuild" and then
Fixboot

Cheers,
Carl




--
admin_papa

 

[Don Phillipson]

"admin_papa" <admin_papa.2fd9e5c@news.win98banter.com> wrote in message
news:admin_papa.2fd9e5c@news.win98banter.com...

> If your system fails to start due to an error corresponding to missing
> HAL.DLL, invalid Boot.ini or any other critical system boot files you
> can repair this by using the XP installation CD.

Perhaps you should repost this in an XP NG (not 98.)

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:05:00 +0100, admin_papa
<admin_papa.2fd9e5c@news.win98banter.com> put finger to keyboard and
composed:

>Just wanted to share my new experience.
>
>If your system fails to start due to an error corresponding to missing
>HAL.DLL, invalid Boot.ini or any other critical system boot files you
>can repair this by using the XP installation CD. Just boot from your XP
>Setup CD and enter the Recovery Console. Then run "attrib -H -R -S" on
>the C:\Boot.ini file and delete it. Launch "Bootcfg /Rebuild" and then
>Fixboot
>
>Cheers,
>Carl

Do not run FIXBOOT on a FAT32 partition. You *will* trash it.

See my horror story here:
http://groups.google.com/group/micr..._discussion/msg/1a099425734f8a36?dmode=source

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[John John (MVP)]

Franc Zabkar wrote:

> On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:05:00 +0100, admin_papa
> <admin_papa.2fd9e5c@news.win98banter.com> put finger to keyboard and
> composed:
>
>
>>Just wanted to share my new experience.
>>
>>If your system fails to start due to an error corresponding to missing
>>HAL.DLL, invalid Boot.ini or any other critical system boot files you
>>can repair this by using the XP installation CD. Just boot from your XP
>>Setup CD and enter the Recovery Console. Then run "attrib -H -R -S" on
>>the C:\Boot.ini file and delete it. Launch "Bootcfg /Rebuild" and then
>>Fixboot
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Carl
>
>
> Do not run FIXBOOT on a FAT32 partition. You *will* trash it.

That is simply not true, fixboot does not trash FAT32 partitions. That
you would have experienced a disk problem after using fixboot is more
coincidence than anything else, your disk probably had other problems or
corruption and as luck would have it the disk failed when you used
fixboot. Fixboot is the prescribed method for repairing the NT boot
sector and returning the boot loader from Io.sys to ntldr, the command
is safe and it does not trash FAT32 partitions, your disk had other
problems when you ran the command.

John

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:24:23 -0300, "John John (MVP)"
<audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> put finger to keyboard and composed:

>Franc Zabkar wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:05:00 +0100, admin_papa
>> <admin_papa.2fd9e5c@news.win98banter.com> put finger to keyboard and
>> composed:
>>
>>
>>>Just wanted to share my new experience.
>>>
>>>If your system fails to start due to an error corresponding to missing
>>>HAL.DLL, invalid Boot.ini or any other critical system boot files you
>>>can repair this by using the XP installation CD. Just boot from your XP
>>>Setup CD and enter the Recovery Console. Then run "attrib -H -R -S" on
>>>the C:\Boot.ini file and delete it. Launch "Bootcfg /Rebuild" and then
>>>Fixboot
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>>Carl
>>
>>
>> Do not run FIXBOOT on a FAT32 partition. You *will* trash it.
>
>That is simply not true, fixboot does not trash FAT32 partitions. That
>you would have experienced a disk problem after using fixboot is more
>coincidence than anything else, your disk probably had other problems or
>corruption and as luck would have it the disk failed when you used
>fixboot. Fixboot is the prescribed method for repairing the NT boot
>sector and returning the boot loader from Io.sys to ntldr, the command
>is safe and it does not trash FAT32 partitions, your disk had other
>problems when you ran the command.
>
>John

That's how it's supposed to work. However, FIXBOOT actually turns your
FAT32 partition into a 10MB FAT16 drive, at least under some
circumstances. Many people have experienced exactly the same problem.

Maybe in my case there was something else wrong with the disc that
caused FIXBOOT to go awry, but nevertheless the partition was trashed.
Ironically Win98SE was smart enough to use the backup boot sector at
logical sector 6 and thereby recover all the files, but Win XP was
not. In any case, why would FIXBOOT write a 10MB FAT16 boot sector to
*any* HD partition? That's just bizarre.

BTW, FIXMBR is broken, too, and CHKDSK, when run from the Recovery
Console, is next to useless, or at best severely limited. At least
that was my experience.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[John John (MVP)]

Franc Zabkar wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:24:23 -0300, "John John (MVP)"
> <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>
>
>>Franc Zabkar wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:05:00 +0100, admin_papa
>>><admin_papa.2fd9e5c@news.win98banter.com> put finger to keyboard and
>>>composed:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Just wanted to share my new experience.
>>>>
>>>>If your system fails to start due to an error corresponding to missing
>>>>HAL.DLL, invalid Boot.ini or any other critical system boot files you
>>>>can repair this by using the XP installation CD. Just boot from your XP
>>>>Setup CD and enter the Recovery Console. Then run "attrib -H -R -S" on
>>>>the C:\Boot.ini file and delete it. Launch "Bootcfg /Rebuild" and then
>>>>Fixboot
>>>>
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>Carl
>>>
>>>
>>>Do not run FIXBOOT on a FAT32 partition. You *will* trash it.
>>
>>That is simply not true, fixboot does not trash FAT32 partitions. That
>>you would have experienced a disk problem after using fixboot is more
>>coincidence than anything else, your disk probably had other problems or
>>corruption and as luck would have it the disk failed when you used
>>fixboot. Fixboot is the prescribed method for repairing the NT boot
>>sector and returning the boot loader from Io.sys to ntldr, the command
>>is safe and it does not trash FAT32 partitions, your disk had other
>>problems when you ran the command.
>>
>>John
>
>
> That's how it's supposed to work. However, FIXBOOT actually turns your
> FAT32 partition into a 10MB FAT16 drive, at least under some
> circumstances. Many people have experienced exactly the same problem.

That is not true! You are spreading misinformation. These kinds of
problems usually result when the command is run on improperly cloned
drives, the problem is not with fixboot, it is with incorrect drive
geometry that results from a bad cloning job. Windows 2000/XP are
compatible with FAT32 and they can be installed on FAT32, fixboot does
not damage partitions and it does not change FAT32 partitions into FAT16
partitions, if you experience such difficulties you have other disk
problems and that is not fixboot's fault!

John

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 08:10:50 -0300, "John John (MVP)"
<audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> put finger to keyboard and composed:

>Franc Zabkar wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:24:23 -0300, "John John (MVP)"
>> <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>>
>>
>>>Franc Zabkar wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:05:00 +0100, admin_papa
>>>><admin_papa.2fd9e5c@news.win98banter.com> put finger to keyboard and
>>>>composed:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Just wanted to share my new experience.
>>>>>
>>>>>If your system fails to start due to an error corresponding to missing
>>>>>HAL.DLL, invalid Boot.ini or any other critical system boot files you
>>>>>can repair this by using the XP installation CD. Just boot from your XP
>>>>>Setup CD and enter the Recovery Console. Then run "attrib -H -R -S" on
>>>>>the C:\Boot.ini file and delete it. Launch "Bootcfg /Rebuild" and then
>>>>>Fixboot
>>>>>
>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>Carl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Do not run FIXBOOT on a FAT32 partition. You *will* trash it.
>>>
>>>That is simply not true, fixboot does not trash FAT32 partitions. That
>>>you would have experienced a disk problem after using fixboot is more
>>>coincidence than anything else, your disk probably had other problems or
>>>corruption and as luck would have it the disk failed when you used
>>>fixboot. Fixboot is the prescribed method for repairing the NT boot
>>>sector and returning the boot loader from Io.sys to ntldr, the command
>>>is safe and it does not trash FAT32 partitions, your disk had other
>>>problems when you ran the command.
>>>
>>>John
>>
>>
>> That's how it's supposed to work. However, FIXBOOT actually turns your
>> FAT32 partition into a 10MB FAT16 drive, at least under some
>> circumstances. Many people have experienced exactly the same problem.
>
>That is not true! You are spreading misinformation. These kinds of
>problems usually result when the command is run on improperly cloned
>drives, the problem is not with fixboot, it is with incorrect drive
>geometry that results from a bad cloning job. Windows 2000/XP are
>compatible with FAT32 and they can be installed on FAT32, fixboot does
>not damage partitions and it does not change FAT32 partitions into FAT16
>partitions, if you experience such difficulties you have other disk
>problems and that is not fixboot's fault!
>
>John

Actually the problem in my case was that Fixboot wrote a FAT12 boot
sector (used by floppy discs or HDs smaller than 16MB), not FAT16.

The history of the problematic HD, AFAICT, is that is was formatted as
FAT32 by Win9x (the backup boot sector had references to IO.SYS and
MSDOS.SYS), and then XP was later installed over the top. It had been
working OK for several years until one day it powered up with a
"missing NTLDR" error. DISKPART was able to see the full partition
(38GB), so the partition table and MBR were apparently OK. A
subsequent Fixboot then trashed the boot sector. This begs the
question, why did Fixboot create a 10MB FAT12 boot sector when the
partition table was reporting a size of 38GB? An "NTLDR is missing"
error message is present in the FAT32 boot sector, so it appears that
the original boot sector may have been OK. Instead the FATs were
probably corrupt, as later suggested, and repaired, by Scandisk.

I invite you to search the Internet for "fixboot FAT12" or "fixboot
FAT16". Maybe you're right and maybe Fixboot doesn't trash good
partitions, but clearly there are many documented cases where it makes
an existing problem much, much worse. AFAICS, if you're having a file
system problem, expect Fixboot to hinder you, not help you. I
certainly will never trust it again.

BTW, if I can get my hands on an XP CD, I'll try a few experiments to
see if I can reproduce the FAT12 problem.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[John John (MVP)]

Franc Zabkar wrote:

> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 08:10:50 -0300, "John John (MVP)"
> <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>
>
>>Franc Zabkar wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:24:23 -0300, "John John (MVP)"
>>><audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Franc Zabkar wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:05:00 +0100, admin_papa
>>>>><admin_papa.2fd9e5c@news.win98banter.com> put finger to keyboard and
>>>>>composed:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Just wanted to share my new experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If your system fails to start due to an error corresponding to missing
>>>>>>HAL.DLL, invalid Boot.ini or any other critical system boot files you
>>>>>>can repair this by using the XP installation CD. Just boot from your XP
>>>>>>Setup CD and enter the Recovery Console. Then run "attrib -H -R -S" on
>>>>>>the C:\Boot.ini file and delete it. Launch "Bootcfg /Rebuild" and then
>>>>>>Fixboot
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>Carl
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Do not run FIXBOOT on a FAT32 partition. You *will* trash it.
>>>>
>>>>That is simply not true, fixboot does not trash FAT32 partitions. That
>>>>you would have experienced a disk problem after using fixboot is more
>>>>coincidence than anything else, your disk probably had other problems or
>>>>corruption and as luck would have it the disk failed when you used
>>>>fixboot. Fixboot is the prescribed method for repairing the NT boot
>>>>sector and returning the boot loader from Io.sys to ntldr, the command
>>>>is safe and it does not trash FAT32 partitions, your disk had other
>>>>problems when you ran the command.
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>
>>>
>>>That's how it's supposed to work. However, FIXBOOT actually turns your
>>>FAT32 partition into a 10MB FAT16 drive, at least under some
>>>circumstances. Many people have experienced exactly the same problem.
>>
>>That is not true! You are spreading misinformation. These kinds of
>>problems usually result when the command is run on improperly cloned
>>drives, the problem is not with fixboot, it is with incorrect drive
>>geometry that results from a bad cloning job. Windows 2000/XP are
>>compatible with FAT32 and they can be installed on FAT32, fixboot does
>>not damage partitions and it does not change FAT32 partitions into FAT16
>>partitions, if you experience such difficulties you have other disk
>>problems and that is not fixboot's fault!
>>
>>John
>
>
> Actually the problem in my case was that Fixboot wrote a FAT12 boot
> sector (used by floppy discs or HDs smaller than 16MB), not FAT16.


That is a *known* symptom that can occur in the somewhat infrequent
situation when *both* the bootsector and the backup bootsector are
corrupted, it is by no means a common occurrence and it also occurs with
NTFS partitions, it is not a basis for proclaiming that fixboot trashes
FAT32 partitions and turns them into FAT12, when this problem occurs the
disk is experiencing other difficulties or corruption problems.



> The history of the problematic HD, AFAICT, is that is was formatted as
> FAT32 by Win9x (the backup boot sector had references to IO.SYS and
> MSDOS.SYS), and then XP was later installed over the top. It had been
> working OK for several years until one day it powered up with a
> "missing NTLDR" error. DISKPART was able to see the full partition
> (38GB), so the partition table and MBR were apparently OK. A
> subsequent Fixboot then trashed the boot sector. This begs the
> question, why did Fixboot create a 10MB FAT12 boot sector when the
> partition table was reporting a size of 38GB? An "NTLDR is missing"
> error message is present in the FAT32 boot sector, so it appears that
> the original boot sector may have been OK. Instead the FATs were
> probably corrupt, as later suggested, and repaired, by Scandisk.
>
> I invite you to search the Internet for "fixboot FAT12" or "fixboot
> FAT16".


I have. In the Google Groups archive a search for fixboot fat16 returns
a grand total of 11 hits, two of which are related to this discussion
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?lr=&safe=off&num=100&q=fixboot+fat16&safe=off&qt_s=Search

And a search for fixboot fat12 returns even fewer hits, a grand total of
4 hits, one of which is related to this discussion.

A Google search for Fixboot+fat12 returns a paltry 2,730 hits, and a
Yahoo! search returns 2,030, by no means can it be said that this is
indicative of a common or frequent problem with fixboot, to the contrary
it indicates that this is a rare or infrequent situation. This problem
is only encountered when other disk corruption is presents and even then
it is a rather rare occurrence.



> Maybe you're right and maybe Fixboot doesn't trash good
> partitions,

It doesn't, you had *one* bad experience and as luck would have it you
had other existing disk problems which caused problems with fixboot,
this is by no means ample evidence and reason to issue a broad and
definitive claim stating that fixboot *trashes* FAT32 partitions or that
it turns them into FAT12 partitions.



> but clearly there are many documented cases where it makes
> an existing problem much, much worse.

Many? Make that a handful of cases. A search on the net that results
in a couple thousands of hits is by no means many, it is but a few.
Give me a problem with millions of hits and documented cases, or at
least hundreds of thousands of hits and then we can start talking about
many cases.


AFAICS, if you're having a file
> system problem, expect Fixboot to hinder you, not help you. I
> certainly will never trust it again.

That is certainly your prerogative. It doesn't mean that others have
had or will have the same bad experience with the command, the command
has been used successfully by others hundreds of thousands or millions
of times.



> BTW, if I can get my hands on an XP CD, I'll try a few experiments to
> see if I can reproduce the FAT12 problem.

You can download the 6 floppy diskette setup set from Microsoft or
download an .iso copy of the Recovery Console on several web sites.

John

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 09:33:24 -0300, "John John (MVP)"
<audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> put finger to keyboard and composed:

>Franc Zabkar wrote:

>> BTW, if I can get my hands on an XP CD, I'll try a few experiments to
>> see if I can reproduce the FAT12 problem.
>
>You can download the 6 floppy diskette setup set from Microsoft or
>download an .iso copy of the Recovery Console on several web sites.
>
>John

I tried a few experiments on a 13GB FAT32 volume that had been
formatted by Win98SE.

It should first be noted that the boot sector consists of a data
section at the beginning and a code section at the end. After running
FIXBOOT, the data section remained intact but the code section was
replaced with XP boot code. This is expected behaviour, so you were
right. I apologise.

I then tried damaging the data section by replacing the FAT32
signature with "JUNK ", but FIXBOOT once again correctly detected the
sector as FAT32 and replaced the boot code. However, it did not
restore the FAT32 signature.

Next I completely zeroed the boot sector. This time FIXBOOT created a
10MB FAT12 volume. At no time did it use the backup boot sector at
sector 6. In fact, I have demonstrated in the past that the XP
installation process does not update the backup boot sector, instead
it leaves the original Win98 version intact. It appears that XP is not
even aware that it exists.

So as you can see, FIXBOOT works fine repairing boot sectors that
aren't really broken, but it can create a disaster when there is a
genuine problem, even an easily fixed one.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[John John (MVP)]

Franc Zabkar wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 09:33:24 -0300, "John John (MVP)"
> <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>
>
>>Franc Zabkar wrote:
>
>
>>>BTW, if I can get my hands on an XP CD, I'll try a few experiments to
>>>see if I can reproduce the FAT12 problem.
>>
>>You can download the 6 floppy diskette setup set from Microsoft or
>>download an .iso copy of the Recovery Console on several web sites.
>>
>>John
>
>
> I tried a few experiments on a 13GB FAT32 volume that had been
> formatted by Win98SE.
>
> It should first be noted that the boot sector consists of a data
> section at the beginning and a code section at the end. After running
> FIXBOOT, the data section remained intact but the code section was
> replaced with XP boot code. This is expected behaviour, so you were
> right. I apologise.
>
> I then tried damaging the data section by replacing the FAT32
> signature with "JUNK ", but FIXBOOT once again correctly detected the
> sector as FAT32 and replaced the boot code. However, it did not
> restore the FAT32 signature.
>
> Next I completely zeroed the boot sector. This time FIXBOOT created a
> 10MB FAT12 volume. At no time did it use the backup boot sector at
> sector 6. In fact, I have demonstrated in the past that the XP
> installation process does not update the backup boot sector, instead
> it leaves the original Win98 version intact. It appears that XP is not
> even aware that it exists.

Yes, if I remember correctly I believe that fixboot does not use the
backup boot sector if it was created by Windows 98, in other words the
backup boot sector would have to be NT (XP) compatible for fixboot to
use it as a backup. Remember that fixboot is a Windows 2000/XP utility,
it doesn't care about W9x problems and it won't attempt to restore a W9x
boot sector, it will attempt to restore an NT compatible boot sector. I
think that if the drive had been formated with Windows 2000/XP that
fixboot would have used the backup boot sector.



> So as you can see, FIXBOOT works fine repairing boot sectors that
> aren't really broken, but it can create a disaster when there is a
> genuine problem, even an easily fixed one.

Create a disaster? Hardly, the disaster was created when you went to
the extreme of zeroing out the boot sector! Being that there was no
compatible sector to use as a replacement fixboot barfed and wrote a
FAT12 boot sector to the drive, the end result was no worse than having
a zeroed out boot sector, the boot sector was already trashed before
fixboot ran! Fixboot does not trash or change FAT32 partitions into
different partitions, when these problems occur the boot sector was
already completely thrashed so you cannot put the blame on fixboot, the
only thing that you can put on fixboot is that it could not overcome the
problems caused by an already completely borked boot sector, fixboot
left the old backup boot sector in place for you to manually recover,
fixboot created no more of a disaster than what was already present.
Fixboot is not an advanced data recovery tool and it cannot overcome all
boot sector corruption problems, in cases when fixboot cannot recover
the boot sector Microsoft advises users to manually recover the boot sector.

John

 

[Bill Blanton]

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message news:qtrpb45ntt4ab6gojlvn65vicc7gs864ub@4ax.com...

> I tried a few experiments on a 13GB FAT32 volume that had been
> formatted by Win98SE.
>
> It should first be noted that the boot sector consists of a data
> section at the beginning and a code section at the end. After running
> FIXBOOT, the data section remained intact but the code section was
> replaced with XP boot code. This is expected behaviour, so you were
> right. I apologise.
>
> I then tried damaging the data section by replacing the FAT32
> signature with "JUNK ", but FIXBOOT once again correctly detected the
> sector as FAT32 and replaced the boot code. However, it did not
> restore the FAT32 signature.

According to the FAT spec, that string in the boot sector is not used
to determine FAT type:

http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/6/1/161ba512-40e2-4cc9-843a-923143f3456c/fatgen103.doc

<quote>

BS_FilSysType:

One of the strings "FAT12 ", "FAT16 ", or "FAT ". NOTE: Many people
think that the string in this field has something to do with the determination
of what type of FAT-FAT12, FAT16, or FAT32-that the volume has. This is not
true. You will note from its name that this field is not actually part of the
BPB. This string is informational only and is not used by Microsoft file system
drivers to determine FAT typ,e because it is frequently not set correctly or is
not present. See the FAT Type Determination section of this document. This
string should be set based on the FAT type though, because some non-Microsoft
FAT file system drivers do look at it.

</quote>

<quote>

FAT Type Determination

There is considerable confusion over exactly how this works, which leads to many
"off by 1", "off by 2", "off by 10", and "massively off" errors. It is really
quite simple how this works. The FAT type-one of FAT12, FAT16, or FAT32-is
determined by the count of clusters on the volume and -nothing else-.
[...]
There is no such thing as a FAT12 volume that has more than 4084 clusters. There
is no such thing as a FAT16 volume that has less than 4085 clusters or more than
65,524 clusters. There is no such thing as a FAT32 volume that has less than
65,525 clusters. If you try to make a FAT volume that violates this rule,
Microsoft operating systems will not handle them correctly because they will
think the volume has a different type of FAT than what you think it does.

</quote>


> Next I completely zeroed the boot sector. This time FIXBOOT created a
> 10MB FAT12 volume. At no time did it use the backup boot sector at
> sector 6. In fact, I have demonstrated in the past that the XP
> installation process does not update the backup boot sector, instead
> it leaves the original Win98 version intact.

That may be a good thing, considering what you've found.

> It appears that XP is not even aware that it exists.


> So as you can see, FIXBOOT works fine repairing boot sectors that
> aren't really broken, but it can create a disaster when there is a
> genuine problem, even an easily fixed one.

It'd be interesting to see if simply zeroing the "Sectors/cluster" and/or
the "Sector count" field(s) in the BPB would have the same effect. It might
also be worth checking if just zeroing the ending sector signature word
(0xAA55) causes it. (ala the fdisk/mbr bug)

 

[Bill Blanton]

"John John (MVP)" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message news:uhNKmiPDJHA.4700@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> Franc Zabkar wrote:
>> On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 09:33:24 -0300, "John John (MVP)"
>> <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>>
>>
>>>Franc Zabkar wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>BTW, if I can get my hands on an XP CD, I'll try a few experiments to
>>>>see if I can reproduce the FAT12 problem.
>>>
>>>You can download the 6 floppy diskette setup set from Microsoft or download an .iso copy of the Recovery Console on several web
>>>sites.
>>>
>>>John
>>
>>
>> I tried a few experiments on a 13GB FAT32 volume that had been
>> formatted by Win98SE.
>>
>> It should first be noted that the boot sector consists of a data
>> section at the beginning and a code section at the end. After running
>> FIXBOOT, the data section remained intact but the code section was
>> replaced with XP boot code. This is expected behaviour, so you were
>> right. I apologise.
>>
>> I then tried damaging the data section by replacing the FAT32
>> signature with "JUNK ", but FIXBOOT once again correctly detected the
>> sector as FAT32 and replaced the boot code. However, it did not
>> restore the FAT32 signature.
>>
>> Next I completely zeroed the boot sector. This time FIXBOOT created a
>> 10MB FAT12 volume. At no time did it use the backup boot sector at
>> sector 6. In fact, I have demonstrated in the past that the XP
>> installation process does not update the backup boot sector, instead
>> it leaves the original Win98 version intact. It appears that XP is not
>> even aware that it exists.
>
> Yes, if I remember correctly I believe that fixboot does not use the backup boot sector if it was created by Windows 98, in other
> words the backup boot sector would have to be NT (XP) compatible for fixboot to use it as a backup. Remember that fixboot is a
> Windows 2000/XP utility, it doesn't care about W9x problems and it won't attempt to restore a W9x boot sector, it will attempt to
> restore an NT compatible boot sector. I think that if the drive had been formated with Windows 2000/XP that fixboot would have
> used the backup boot sector.


All other things being equal, the only difference (between a FAT volume formatted
by 9x or NT) should be the loader code portion of the boot sector. The BPB
data and the backup boot sector location should be the same.

It may be significant to note that the backup boot sector "pointer" is located
in the BPB, and Franc zeroed that out, so...



>> So as you can see, FIXBOOT works fine repairing boot sectors that
>> aren't really broken, but it can create a disaster when there is a
>> genuine problem, even an easily fixed one.
>
> Create a disaster? Hardly, the disaster was created when you went to the extreme of zeroing out the boot sector! Being that
> there was no compatible sector to use as a replacement fixboot barfed and wrote a FAT12 boot sector to the drive, the end result
> was no worse than having a zeroed out boot sector, the boot sector was already trashed before fixboot ran! Fixboot does not trash
> or change FAT32 partitions into different partitions, when these problems occur the boot sector was already completely thrashed so
> you cannot put the blame on fixboot, the only thing that you can put on fixboot is that it could not overcome the problems caused
> by an already completely borked boot sector, fixboot left the old backup boot sector in place for you to manually recover, fixboot
> created no more of a disaster than what was already present. Fixboot is not an advanced data recovery tool and it cannot overcome
> all boot sector corruption problems, in cases when fixboot cannot recover the boot sector Microsoft advises users to manually
> recover the boot sector.
>
> John
>

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 09:39:37 -0300, "John John (MVP)"
<audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> put finger to keyboard and composed:

>Franc Zabkar wrote:

>> I tried a few experiments on a 13GB FAT32 volume that had been
>> formatted by Win98SE.

<snip>

>> Next I completely zeroed the boot sector. This time FIXBOOT created a
>> 10MB FAT12 volume. At no time did it use the backup boot sector at
>> sector 6. In fact, I have demonstrated in the past that the XP
>> installation process does not update the backup boot sector, instead
>> it leaves the original Win98 version intact. It appears that XP is not
>> even aware that it exists.
>
>Yes, if I remember correctly I believe that fixboot does not use the
>backup boot sector if it was created by Windows 98, in other words the
>backup boot sector would have to be NT (XP) compatible for fixboot to
>use it as a backup. Remember that fixboot is a Windows 2000/XP utility,
>it doesn't care about W9x problems and it won't attempt to restore a W9x
>boot sector, it will attempt to restore an NT compatible boot sector. I
>think that if the drive had been formated with Windows 2000/XP that
>fixboot would have used the backup boot sector.

You missed the point. Windows XP was installed onto a clean FAT32
partition created by Win98. This *installation* process had no reason
to retain a Win98 backup boot sector, yet it did not replace the
backup with one of its own. This suggests that XP does not use a
backup boot sector under any circumstances. At the very least, the
installation procedure is flawed.

Had XP bothered to consult the backup boot sector, then it could have
made use of its data section and added its own boot code, as I had to
do manually afterwards. In retrospect, I could have just copied the
Win98 backup from sector 6 to sector 0, and then run FIXBOOT to
convert the code section. But by then I was too shell-shocked to trust
FIXBOOT to do anything correctly.

>> So as you can see, FIXBOOT works fine repairing boot sectors that
>> aren't really broken, but it can create a disaster when there is a
>> genuine problem, even an easily fixed one.
>
>Create a disaster? Hardly, the disaster was created when you went to
>the extreme of zeroing out the boot sector! Being that there was no
>compatible sector to use as a replacement fixboot barfed and wrote a
>FAT12 boot sector to the drive, the end result was no worse than having
>a zeroed out boot sector, the boot sector was already trashed before
>fixboot ran!

The stupid thing was that XP wrote anything at all, let alone a floppy
drive volume. If anything, it should have been smart enough to consult
the partition table and recreate a default boot sector based on what
it found there, in the exact same way that it would have done during a
format.

BTW, Windows 98SE has absolutely no problem with a zeroed boot sector
because it is smart enough to see the backup, even in the absence of
the pointer that Bill mentioned.

>Fixboot does not trash or change FAT32 partitions into
>different partitions, when these problems occur the boot sector was
>already completely thrashed so you cannot put the blame on fixboot, the
>only thing that you can put on fixboot is that it could not overcome the
>problems caused by an already completely borked boot sector, fixboot
>left the old backup boot sector in place for you to manually recover,

Hmm, so if FIXBOOT knew about the backup boot sector (which I don't
believe is true), then why wasn't it smart enough to use it?

>fixboot created no more of a disaster than what was already present.

AFAICS the disaster would be compounded when you write to the FAT12
volume. I believe you will trash the first copy of the original FAT
because the new root directory will now be located within its space.
That appears to be what happened in my case, when XP wrote its system
information stuff to the drive. This still presents no problem for
Windows 98's Scandisk which can repair such errors (by using FAT#2 to
reconstruct FAT#1), but XP's CHKDSK wasn't able to do this.

>Fixboot is not an advanced data recovery tool and it cannot overcome all
>boot sector corruption problems, in cases when fixboot cannot recover
>the boot sector Microsoft advises users to manually recover the boot sector.
>
>John

The problem is that Fixboot didn't fix anything at all. Instead it
made the problem worse. I would think that a better strategy would be,
if you don't know what's wrong, then don't fix it, or at least make an
intelligent attempt. Writing a 10MB floppy boot sector to a 38GB hard
drive partition is indefensible.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Wed, 03 Sep 2008 06:47:30 +1000, Franc Zabkar
<fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> put finger to keyboard and composed:

>On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 09:39:37 -0300, "John John (MVP)"
><audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> put finger to keyboard and composed:

>>Create a disaster? Hardly, the disaster was created when you went to
>>the extreme of zeroing out the boot sector! Being that there was no
>>compatible sector to use as a replacement fixboot barfed and wrote a
>>FAT12 boot sector to the drive, the end result was no worse than having
>>a zeroed out boot sector, the boot sector was already trashed before
>>fixboot ran!
>
>The stupid thing was that XP wrote anything at all, let alone a floppy
>drive volume. If anything, it should have been smart enough to consult
>the partition table and recreate a default boot sector based on what
>it found there, in the exact same way that it would have done during a
>format.
>
>BTW, Windows 98SE has absolutely no problem with a zeroed boot sector
>because it is smart enough to see the backup, even in the absence of
>the pointer that Bill mentioned.

Even Win98 in real DOS mode can see the entire file system from a DIR
command. By applying a SYS command to this damaged volume you can
reconstruct the primary boot sector from the backup.

However, zeroing both the primary and the backup boot sectors results
in "invalid media type" and "general failure" errors. No disc tool
(Sys, Debug, Scandisk, Chkdsk) is then able to access the drive. So it
appears that SYS.COM cannot reconstruct the boot sectors by referring
to the partition table, probably because the BPB can contain variable
data such as the number of sectors per cluster. However, at least SYS
knows not to write nonsense to those areas.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[John John (MVP)]

Franc Zabkar wrote:

> On Wed, 03 Sep 2008 06:47:30 +1000, Franc Zabkar
> <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>
>
>>On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 09:39:37 -0300, "John John (MVP)"
>><audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>
>
>>>Create a disaster? Hardly, the disaster was created when you went to
>>>the extreme of zeroing out the boot sector! Being that there was no
>>>compatible sector to use as a replacement fixboot barfed and wrote a
>>>FAT12 boot sector to the drive, the end result was no worse than having
>>>a zeroed out boot sector, the boot sector was already trashed before
>>>fixboot ran!
>>
>>The stupid thing was that XP wrote anything at all, let alone a floppy
>>drive volume. If anything, it should have been smart enough to consult
>>the partition table and recreate a default boot sector based on what
>>it found there, in the exact same way that it would have done during a
>>format.
>>
>>BTW, Windows 98SE has absolutely no problem with a zeroed boot sector
>>because it is smart enough to see the backup, even in the absence of
>>the pointer that Bill mentioned.
>
>
> Even Win98 in real DOS mode can see the entire file system from a DIR
> command. By applying a SYS command to this damaged volume you can
> reconstruct the primary boot sector from the backup.
>
> However, zeroing both the primary and the backup boot sectors results
> in "invalid media type" and "general failure" errors. No disc tool
> (Sys, Debug, Scandisk, Chkdsk) is then able to access the drive. So it
> appears that SYS.COM cannot reconstruct the boot sectors by referring
> to the partition table, probably because the BPB can contain variable
> data such as the number of sectors per cluster. However, at least SYS
> knows not to write nonsense to those areas.

My initial point was that fixboot does not trash FAT32 partitions and it
does not change them to FAT12 unless the boot sector is totally borked
to begin with, your trials support my point. As for the contentious
issue of fixboot writing a FAT12 sector on a totally borked one as far
as I am concerned that is a non-issue, whether or not a FAT12 sector is
written the boot sector still needs to be recovered from the backup, it
changes absolutely nothing. Also, fixboot does not rewrite the backup
boot sector, that is still available for manual recovery.

Incidentally (on FAT32 drives) in certain instances when fixboot cannot
restore the boot sector Microsoft does tell users to resort to the
Sys.com utility to restore the W9x boot sector and to then issue the
fixboot command again to write the necessary NT code.

John

 

[ailema]

well when i reinstalled it again theres an error saying Dll.exe was not
found huhuh




--
ailema