Icon Confusion

[Gary S. Terhune]

Again... Cite? Make it a good one.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
www.grystmill.com

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:u3TLi1f5HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> PCR wrote:
>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>> news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
>>> Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in terminology):
>>> There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
>>>
>>> 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
>>
>> That is a cold boot.
>>
>>> 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you don't
>>> have to press any button to restart.
>>
>> This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets" (Livingston &
>> Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does, but it
>> doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart Windows 98. It
>> restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
>>
>> Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree with you that
>> it is no different from a cold boot.
>
> But you're wrong, because it does NOT remove any resident code or data
> left
> in memory that could be problematic (in some instances). So it is NOT
> "identical", per se, by definition.
>
> In addition, it is also not identical because the internal hardware
> (electronics) has not been powered off and then back on again, which could
> have some relevance for both hardware and software (low level) issues, in
> some instances).
>
> That all being said, the practical results are so similar in MOST cases
> that
> it probably don't matter too much.
>
> Q.E.D.
>
>

 

[Bill in Co.]

Cite? For what? The fact that the only way RAM memory is completely
cleared out is to turn off the computer? Surely you jest!

Gary S. Terhune wrote:
> Again... Cite? Make it a good one.
>
> --
> Gary S. Terhune
> MS-MVP Shell/User
> www.grystmill.com
>
> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:u3TLi1f5HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> PCR wrote:
>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>> news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
>>>> Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in terminology):
>>>> There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
>>>
>>> That is a cold boot.
>>>
>>>> 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you don't
>>>> have to press any button to restart.
>>>
>>> This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets" (Livingston &
>>> Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does, but it
>>> doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart Windows 98. It
>>> restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
>>>
>>> Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree with you that
>>> it is no different from a cold boot.
>>
>> But you're wrong, because it does NOT remove any resident code or data
>> left
>> in memory that could be problematic (in some instances). So it is NOT
>> "identical", per se, by definition.
>>
>> In addition, it is also not identical because the internal hardware
>> (electronics) has not been powered off and then back on again, which
could
>> have some relevance for both hardware and software (low level) issues, in
>> some instances).
>>
>> That all being said, the practical results are so similar in MOST cases
>> that
>> it probably don't matter too much.
>>
>> Q.E.D.

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

What makes you say that? I'm serious. I want a reputable cite that explains
it all in gory detail. ATX boards are "kept alive" unless you pull the plug
or turn off the PWS using a switch (which only some have.) What about that
case? According to your logic, even turning the computer off might not flush
RAM.

Why do you think it is something to take for granted that a reboot doesn't
clear RAM, since it resets everything else? What use is the data contained
therein? What reason would the designers have for maintaining that data
through a reboot? Why wouldn't the juice be momentarily cut from RAM like it
is for nearly everything else. Or does a reboot even do that at all, for any
component? Yes I want a cite or three. I want to learn more about it.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
www.grystmill.com

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:uDkCodh5HHA.5164@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Cite? For what? The fact that the only way RAM memory is completely
> cleared out is to turn off the computer? Surely you jest!
>
> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>> Again... Cite? Make it a good one.
>>
>> --
>> Gary S. Terhune
>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>> www.grystmill.com
>>
>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:u3TLi1f5HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>> PCR wrote:
>>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>>> news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
>>>>> Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in terminology):
>>>>> There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
>>>>
>>>> That is a cold boot.
>>>>
>>>>> 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you don't
>>>>> have to press any button to restart.
>>>>
>>>> This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets" (Livingston &
>>>> Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does, but it
>>>> doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart Windows 98.
>>>> It
>>>> restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
>>>>
>>>> Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree with you
>>>> that
>>>> it is no different from a cold boot.
>>>
>>> But you're wrong, because it does NOT remove any resident code or data
>>> left
>>> in memory that could be problematic (in some instances). So it is NOT
>>> "identical", per se, by definition.
>>>
>>> In addition, it is also not identical because the internal hardware
>>> (electronics) has not been powered off and then back on again, which
> could
>>> have some relevance for both hardware and software (low level) issues,
>>> in
>>> some instances).
>>>
>>> That all being said, the practical results are so similar in MOST cases
>>> that
>>> it probably don't matter too much.
>>>
>>> Q.E.D.
>
>

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

PS What are you doing up so late? Go get some rest, so I can too, <g>.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
www.grystmill.com

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:uDkCodh5HHA.5164@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Cite? For what? The fact that the only way RAM memory is completely
> cleared out is to turn off the computer? Surely you jest!
>
> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>> Again... Cite? Make it a good one.
>>
>> --
>> Gary S. Terhune
>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>> www.grystmill.com
>>
>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:u3TLi1f5HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>> PCR wrote:
>>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>>> news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
>>>>> Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in terminology):
>>>>> There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
>>>>
>>>> That is a cold boot.
>>>>
>>>>> 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you don't
>>>>> have to press any button to restart.
>>>>
>>>> This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets" (Livingston &
>>>> Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does, but it
>>>> doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart Windows 98.
>>>> It
>>>> restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
>>>>
>>>> Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree with you
>>>> that
>>>> it is no different from a cold boot.
>>>
>>> But you're wrong, because it does NOT remove any resident code or data
>>> left
>>> in memory that could be problematic (in some instances). So it is NOT
>>> "identical", per se, by definition.
>>>
>>> In addition, it is also not identical because the internal hardware
>>> (electronics) has not been powered off and then back on again, which
> could
>>> have some relevance for both hardware and software (low level) issues,
>>> in
>>> some instances).
>>>
>>> That all being said, the practical results are so similar in MOST cases
>>> that
>>> it probably don't matter too much.
>>>
>>> Q.E.D.
>
>

 

[Bill in Co.]

I'm usually up a bit late - I'm kinda a nite owl.

Gary S. Terhune wrote:
> What makes you say that? I'm serious. I want a reputable cite that
explains
> it all in gory detail. ATX boards are "kept alive" unless you pull the
plug
> or turn off the PWS using a switch (which only some have.)

I don't know anything about ATX boards, per se. Maybe ATX boards never
remove power from the RAM when you turn the computer off, but that sure
seems unlikely, as there's not much point.

> What about that
> case? According to your logic, even turning the computer off might not
flush
> RAM.

Well, "flush" RAM is not the correct terminology here. Let me explain:

Only by turning the computer off will the entire RAM memory contents (with
some parts still potentially containing some code or data) effectively
destroyed.

So when you turn the computer back on again, the contents of all the RAM
will be random to begin with. That can't happen with a reboot.

> Why do you think it is something to take for granted that a reboot doesn't
> clear RAM, since it resets everything else?

I think some of this misunderstanding is due to my misuse of the term "clear
RAM" (if i said that term) here, as I explained above.

> What use is the data contained
> therein? What reason would the designers have for maintaining that data
> through a reboot?

But rebooting does not wipe out the contents of all the RAM. It's not a
question of "trying to maintain the data" - you're missing my point. It's
rather that some of it is still left there.

> Why wouldn't the juice be momentarily cut from RAM like it
> is for nearly everything else. Or does a reboot even do that at all, for
any
> component?

AFAIK, rebooting does NOT remove the *power* from all the RAM chips. And
if you don't remove the power from the RAM, some of its data contents will
still remain, (unless you have some program that deliberately writes data
into all the cells, which would be a separate utility (like to check out the
RAM).

> Yes I want a cite or three. I want to learn more about it.
>
> --
> Gary S. Terhune
> MS-MVP Shell/User
> www.grystmill.com
>
> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:uDkCodh5HHA.5164@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> Cite? For what? The fact that the only way RAM memory is
completely
>> cleared out is to turn off the computer? Surely you jest!
>>
>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>> Again... Cite? Make it a good one.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>
>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>> news:u3TLi1f5HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>>>> news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
>>>>>> Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in terminology):
>>>>>> There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is a cold boot.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you don't
>>>>>> have to press any button to restart.
>>>>>
>>>>> This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets" (Livingston &
>>>>> Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does, but it
>>>>> doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart Windows 98.
>>>>> It
>>>>> restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
>>>>>
>>>>> Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree with you
>>>>> that
>>>>> it is no different from a cold boot.
>>>>
>>>> But you're wrong, because it does NOT remove any resident code or data
>>>> left
>>>> in memory that could be problematic (in some instances). So it is
NOT
>>>> "identical", per se, by definition.
>>>>
>>>> In addition, it is also not identical because the internal hardware
>>>> (electronics) has not been powered off and then back on again, which
could
>>>> have some relevance for both hardware and software (low level) issues,
>>>> in
>>>> some instances).
>>>>
>>>> That all being said, the practical results are so similar in MOST cases
>>>> that
>>>> it probably don't matter too much.
>>>>
>>>> Q.E.D.

 

[dadiOH]

Bill in Co. wrote:

> But rebooting does not wipe out the contents of all the RAM.
> It's not a question of "trying to maintain the data" - you're
> missing my point. It's rather that some of it is still left
> there.

And I still say that it doesn't make any difference if it is there or
not. There is always *something* there anytime the machine is on.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

 

[PCR]

"PCR" <pcrrcp@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:ucSNyoc5HHA.600@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl
| "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
| news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
|| Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in terminology):
|| There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
||
|| 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
|
| That is a cold boot.
|
|| 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you don't
|| have to press any button to restart.
|
| This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets" (Livingston &
| Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does, but it
| doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart Windows 98.
| It restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
|
| Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree with you
| that it is no different from a cold boot.
|
|| 3. So-called "Warm" or "Soft" restart (not reboot), which only
|| restarts Windows, while DOS remains resident. Common in Win95, and
|| supported in Win98, mostly for those apps from 95 days that would
|| perform such a restart as part of Setup. Yes, it's possible to
|| manually do it in Win98, but I forget how.
|
| Could it be this "undocumented" feature from the book (same
| page)...?...
|
| "To restart Windows 98 quickly without going through the warm reboot
| process, mark Restart, and then hold down your Shift key while
| clicking the OK button in the Shut Down Windows dialog box."
|
| I intend to try it later!

UPDATE: Yea, that was it. Instead of going to my Compaq BIOS's jumping
solid square cursors, it went straight to a blank screen with a single,
blinking line of a cursor, followed by the message... "Windows is now
restarting". And indeed it did restart!

|| As for the ShellIconCache issue, you have Win98 in front of you (I
|| don't). Why don't you test? Won't hurt anything.
||
|| Also, there's a fix for increasing the size of the ShellIconCache.
|| Also creates an item in Folder Options that allows you to choose what
|| size. Here it is:
|| http://www.aumha.org/regfiles.php#icons
||
|| --
|| Gary S. Terhune
|| MS-MVP Shell/User
|| www.grystmill.com
||
|| "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
|| news:%23FaxT%23F5HHA.5844@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
||> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
||>> Bull. A "warm" reboot is not a full Restart, if that's what you
||>> mean, but a full reboot (one that isn't like the Win95 "soft" or
||>> "warm" reboot) is the
||>> equivalent of shutting down and restarting. Yes, it's possible to
||>> do a soft restart in Windows 98, but it isn't supported and is
||>> advised against. You certainly aren't doing that when you click
||>> Start>Shutdown>Restart.
||>
||> OK, but I was trying to distinguish between simply rebooting vs
||> shutting down and powering up again, and there sure is a difference
||> there! So I don't know what the right terms are then. (Forget
||> "warm reboot", then - my
||> bad). Maybe one is just called "rebooting", and the other has to
||> be laboriously callled "powering up from a cold start", and that's
||> all you can
||> call it.
||>
||>> And no, a single shutdown and restart will not rebuild the
||>> ShellIconCache,
||>> not until the next time you shut down (and you won't see it until
||>> you start it again.)
||>
||> Well, then I musta misrembered this, as I had thought that when I
||> deleted the cache and turned the computer off and then on again, the
||> cache *was* formed and there on the HD (as seen in windows
||> explorer). But maybe you're right and it still takes a reboot
||> even after that. I can't recall
||> for certain.
||>
||>> From the time you delete the file, it requires two restarts to
||>> see it again, whether you use Shutdown>Restart or Shutdown and
||>> manually restart.
||>>
||>> --
||>> Gary S. Terhune
||>> MS-MVP Shell/User
||>> www.grystmill.com
||>> .
||>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
||>> news:es6vEtF5HHA.6024@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
||>>> It IS different, because it doesn't require TWO warm reboots.
||>>> Just one cold reboot.
||>>>
||>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
||>>>> Huh? Turning off the machine then back on isn't any different
||>>>> than a reboot. When you delete ShellIconCache, it isn't rebuilt
||>>>> until the second shut down or reboot, whichever you choose, no
||>>>> matter how you get it to that point.
||>>>>
||>>>> --
||>>>> Gary S. Terhune
||>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
||>>>> www.grystmill.com
||>>>>
||>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
||>>>> news:u1p9cTE5HHA.5796@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
||>>>>> lb wrote:
||>>>>>> On Aug 21, 3:19 pm, H...@invalid.com wrote:
||>>>>>>> This is Win98se
||>>>>>>> For some reason there is some icon confusion going on. For
||>>>>>>> example, I have a program called "Hosts Toggle" (to turn on
||>>>>>>> and off the hosts file). Right now, all files with the PDF
||>>>>>>> extension have the icon from "Hosts Toggle". Text files
||>>>>>>> (.txt) have an icon from another program instead of the
||>>>>>>> notepad icon.
||>>>>>>>
||>>>>>>> The next time I reboot, the icons will be different and some
||>>>>>>> other extension will have the wrong icon, for example last
||>>>>>>> night all the .jpg files had an icon from another folder on my
||>>>>>>> desktop.
||>>>>>>>
||>>>>>>> Everything else is working fine. Why is this happeningt and
||>>>>>>> how do I
||>>>>>>> fix it?
||>>>>>>>
||>>>>>>> Thanks
||>>>>>>> HN
||>>>>>>
||>>>>>> If you have TweakUI, you can go to the repair tab and repair
||>>>>>> the icons.
||>>>>>>
||>>>>>> Your shelliconcache file may be too small or damaged. You can
||>>>>>> delete it and windows will make a new one on the 2nd boot.
||>>>>>
||>>>>> Or just turn off the computer, and then turn it on a few seconds
||>>>>> later,
||>>>>> and
||>>>>> you won't have to reboot twice - or thrice (possibly).
||>>>>>
||>>>>>> You can increase the size with programs such as Cacheman or X
||>>>>>> Setup. Both of these have older free versions. Post if you do
||>>>>>> not have any of these.
||>>>>>>
||>>>>>> Another thing is that if you are using a desktop shortcut to
||>>>>>> rapidly shutdown windows, stop using it as it prevents your
||>>>>>> shelliconcache from being rewritten properly.
||>>>>>
||>>>>> Not for me it doesn't (and hasn't). I've had a desktop
||>>>>> shortcut for
||>>>>> shutdown for years. (as for "rapidly", who knows. LOL).
|
| --
| Thanks or Good Luck,
| There may be humor in this post, and,
| Naturally, you will not sue,
| Should things get worse after this,
| PCR
| pcrrcp@netzero.net

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
Should things get worse after this,
PCR
pcrrcp@netzero.net

 

[PCR]

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:u3TLi1f5HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl
| PCR wrote:
|> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
|> news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
|>> Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in terminology):
|>> There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
|>>
|>> 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
|>
|> That is a cold boot.
|>
|>> 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you don't
|>> have to press any button to restart.
|>
|> This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets" (Livingston
|> & Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does, but
|> it doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart Windows
|> 98. It restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
|>
|> Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree with you
|> that it is no different from a cold boot.
|
| But you're wrong, because it does NOT remove any resident code or
| data left in memory that could be problematic (in some instances).
| So it is NOT "identical", per se, by definition.

I'm thinking...

(a) There is the BIOS RAM check, where all of it is written to
& read from.
(b) Even without that, all RAM that will be used is over-written
with fresh code.

| In addition, it is also not identical because the internal hardware
| (electronics) has not been powered off and then back on again, which
| could have some relevance for both hardware and software (low level)
| issues, in some instances).

Somewhere during the boot, all peripheral devices get control to
over-write their RAM too, I'm thinking. DON'T make me hit you over the
head with a 1207 page book, Colorado! (It needs a major defrag & an
index re-work, or, instead, I'd pore through it for the perfect answer!)

| That all being said, the practical results are so similar in MOST
| cases that it probably don't matter too much.

I think it likely is identical. Anything in RAM is cleared or
over-written. But, I'll change my tune-- IF you show me a gory reference
that hasn't fainted Terhune OR tell me the page to look at in "Windows
98 Secrets" (Livingston/Straub)!

| Q.E.D.

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
Should things get worse after this,
PCR
pcrrcp@netzero.net

 

[Bill in Co.]

dadiOH wrote:
> Bill in Co. wrote:
>
>> But rebooting does not wipe out the contents of all the RAM.
>> It's not a question of "trying to maintain the data" - you're
>> missing my point. It's rather that some of it is still left
>> there.
>
> And I still say that it doesn't make any difference if it is there or
> not. There is always *something* there anytime the machine is on.

It sure can. Like in the case of a resident virus, for one example. Or
some aberrant code which FORCES you to turn off the computer! (and that
has happened on a few occasions over here)

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

I don't buy this "data remains in RAM" or "some of the data remains in RAM"
or even that it becomes random. Here's the way I look at it, based upon
observation and deductive logic. RAM is kept alive by electricity. No
electricity, the ones turn to zeros (or vice versa, but it isn't random.)
Since the data in RAM isn't worth a damn after a restart, there's no reason
to keep the RAM alive. Either that or nothing happens to RAM when the
electricity is cut, it remains in the last-used state, which means that even
if you shut down, the data is retained. It's one or the other.

On an AT board, pushing the reset button momentarily cuts the power supply
to the entire system (except that part that's kept alive by the CMOS
battery.) AFAICT, a restart accomplishes the same thing via electronic
means.

With ATX boards, parts of the system are kept alive, to support things like
Wake-On LAN. But only those parts that are necessary to keep alive while the
machine is "turned off." RAM isn't one of those components. Resetting or
restarting does the same thing to all the rest of the components as it does
in an AT board -- momentarily cuts power to those components to reset them.

But maybe I'm totally wrong, I don't know. Again, if you can find a
reputable resource that describes all these functions in technical detail,
something that takes you through exactly what happens at every step of a
startup, shutdown, manual reset and programmatic reset, I'd be very
interested. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but if so, I want the real story, not
anecdotal evidence or simplistic articles that don't walk me through the
processes. I thought I saw a link in this thread to an article that claimed
the same thing you do, but I can't find it now. I did take a quick glance at
it, but it didn't offer any more explanation than you have, nor did I
recognize it as an established technical resource.

I'd do it myself, but I have a lot on my plate for the next few weeks. Maybe
PCGuide explains it. But I figure since you made the claim, and perhaps have
more free time than I do, you'd be willing to find the resources and settle
it once and for all (at least for us.) If you don't want to, that's fine,
but I thought you might be willing. I won't be here for a good ten days,
anyway, and I'll probably have no access to the NGs, though that isn't
certain, so there's no hurry, <s>.

(Tired and yawning as I was when I wrote that previous post last night, at
midnight, half an hour after I lay down I was wide awake, worrying about all
the things I have to do this weekend in preparation for a busy trip out of
town next week. Go figure.)

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
www.grystmill.com

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:u6XQyNi5HHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> I'm usually up a bit late - I'm kinda a nite owl.
>
> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>> What makes you say that? I'm serious. I want a reputable cite that
> explains
>> it all in gory detail. ATX boards are "kept alive" unless you pull the
> plug
>> or turn off the PWS using a switch (which only some have.)
>
> I don't know anything about ATX boards, per se. Maybe ATX boards never
> remove power from the RAM when you turn the computer off, but that sure
> seems unlikely, as there's not much point.
>
>> What about that
>> case? According to your logic, even turning the computer off might not
> flush
>> RAM.
>
> Well, "flush" RAM is not the correct terminology here. Let me explain:
>
> Only by turning the computer off will the entire RAM memory contents (with
> some parts still potentially containing some code or data) effectively
> destroyed.
>
> So when you turn the computer back on again, the contents of all the RAM
> will be random to begin with. That can't happen with a reboot.
>
>> Why do you think it is something to take for granted that a reboot
>> doesn't
>> clear RAM, since it resets everything else?
>
> I think some of this misunderstanding is due to my misuse of the term
> "clear
> RAM" (if i said that term) here, as I explained above.
>
>> What use is the data contained
>> therein? What reason would the designers have for maintaining that data
>> through a reboot?
>
> But rebooting does not wipe out the contents of all the RAM. It's not a
> question of "trying to maintain the data" - you're missing my point.
> It's
> rather that some of it is still left there.
>
>> Why wouldn't the juice be momentarily cut from RAM like it
>> is for nearly everything else. Or does a reboot even do that at all, for
> any
>> component?
>
> AFAIK, rebooting does NOT remove the *power* from all the RAM chips.
> And
> if you don't remove the power from the RAM, some of its data contents will
> still remain, (unless you have some program that deliberately writes data
> into all the cells, which would be a separate utility (like to check out
> the
> RAM).
>
>> Yes I want a cite or three. I want to learn more about it.
>>
>> --
>> Gary S. Terhune
>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>> www.grystmill.com
>>
>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:uDkCodh5HHA.5164@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>> Cite? For what? The fact that the only way RAM memory is
> completely
>>> cleared out is to turn off the computer? Surely you jest!
>>>
>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>> Again... Cite? Make it a good one.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>
>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:u3TLi1f5HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
>>>>>>> Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in terminology):
>>>>>>> There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is a cold boot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you don't
>>>>>>> have to press any button to restart.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets" (Livingston
>>>>>> &
>>>>>> Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does, but it
>>>>>> doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart Windows 98.
>>>>>> It
>>>>>> restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree with you
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> it is no different from a cold boot.
>>>>>
>>>>> But you're wrong, because it does NOT remove any resident code or data
>>>>> left
>>>>> in memory that could be problematic (in some instances). So it is
> NOT
>>>>> "identical", per se, by definition.
>>>>>
>>>>> In addition, it is also not identical because the internal hardware
>>>>> (electronics) has not been powered off and then back on again, which
> could
>>>>> have some relevance for both hardware and software (low level) issues,
>>>>> in
>>>>> some instances).
>>>>>
>>>>> That all being said, the practical results are so similar in MOST
>>>>> cases
>>>>> that
>>>>> it probably don't matter too much.
>>>>>
>>>>> Q.E.D.
>
>

 

[Don/Gen]

HN,

This happens to me from time to time and I go to Windows
Explorer/View/Folder Options, click on File Types tab, double click on any
of the files listed Ex: Adobe Acrobat Document, in the Action window will
be Open with Acrobat 6.0(your version may be different), click on OK and
again OK to close out of both windows and your icons should return to
normal. You have changed nothing but reminded the computer of an OK
file/icon association. It is quick and easy without any shutdowns or
restarts.

Don

<HN@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:nnhmc3pr0rv0vpfsvbkaijsr5kibr7v2pc@4ax.com...
> This is Win98se
> For some reason there is some icon confusion going on. For example, I
> have a program called "Hosts Toggle" (to turn on and off the hosts
> file). Right now, all files with the PDF extension have the icon from
> "Hosts Toggle". Text files (.txt) have an icon from another program
> instead of the notepad icon.
>
> The next time I reboot, the icons will be different and some other
> extension will have the wrong icon, for example last night all the
> .jpg files had an icon from another folder on my desktop.
>
> Everything else is working fine. Why is this happeningt and how do I
> fix it?
>
> Thanks
> HN

 

[Bill in Co.]

Gary S. Terhune wrote:
> I don't buy this "data remains in RAM" or "some of the data remains in
RAM"
> or even that it becomes random. Here's the way I look at it, based upon
> observation and deductive logic. RAM is kept alive by electricity. No
> electricity, the ones turn to zeros (or vice versa, but it isn't random.)

Let me get this straight. You think that when you turn the computer back
on, the RAM contents are either all ones or all zeros? No way, Jose!
Go take a peek sometime using debug.

If you take a RAM IC, and power it up (like on a breadboard), the contents
of its memory locations will be pseudorandom, and will NOT be all ones or
all zeroes!

> Since the data in RAM isn't worth a damn after a restart, there's no
reason
> to keep the RAM alive.

It's not really a question of "alive" or "dead" (some misleading terminology
here).
Well, ok, technically, if you want to use the term "dead" here, that would
only apply when power is removed from the RAM chip. We can agree that
then, and then only, is it dead.

> Either that or nothing happens to RAM when the
> electricity is cut, it remains in the last-used state, which means that
even

No, it does NOT remain in the last used state (the contents or data in the
RAM cells, I mean). But that IS true for ROM, obviously!

> if you shut down, the data is retained. It's one or the other.
>
> On an AT board, pushing the reset button momentarily cuts the power supply
> to the entire system (except that part that's kept alive by the CMOS
> battery.) AFAICT, a restart accomplishes the same thing via electronic
> means.
>
> With ATX boards, parts of the system are kept alive, to support things
like
> Wake-On LAN. But only those parts that are necessary to keep alive while
the
> machine is "turned off." RAM isn't one of those components. Resetting or
> restarting does the same thing to all the rest of the components as it
does
> in an AT board -- momentarily cuts power to those components to reset
them.
>
> But maybe I'm totally wrong, I don't know. Again, if you can find a
> reputable resource that describes all these functions in technical detail,
> something that takes you through exactly what happens at every step of a
> startup, shutdown, manual reset and programmatic reset, I'd be very
> interested. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but if so, I want the real story, not
> anecdotal evidence or simplistic articles that don't walk me through the
> processes. I thought I saw a link in this thread to an article that
claimed
> the same thing you do, but I can't find it now. I did take a quick glance
at
> it, but it didn't offer any more explanation than you have, nor did I
> recognize it as an established technical resource.
>
> I'd do it myself, but I have a lot on my plate for the next few weeks.
Maybe
> PCGuide explains it. But I figure since you made the claim, and perhaps
have
> more free time than I do, you'd be willing to find the resources and
settle
> it once and for all (at least for us.) If you don't want to, that's fine,
> but I thought you might be willing. I won't be here for a good ten days,
> anyway, and I'll probably have no access to the NGs, though that isn't
> certain, so there's no hurry, <s>.
>
> (Tired and yawning as I was when I wrote that previous post last night, at
> midnight, half an hour after I lay down I was wide awake, worrying about
all
> the things I have to do this weekend in preparation for a busy trip out of
> town next week. Go figure.)
>
> --
> Gary S. Terhune
> MS-MVP Shell/User
> www.grystmill.com
>
> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:u6XQyNi5HHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> I'm usually up a bit late - I'm kinda a nite owl.
>>
>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>> What makes you say that? I'm serious. I want a reputable cite that
explains
>>> it all in gory detail. ATX boards are "kept alive" unless you pull the
plug
>>> or turn off the PWS using a switch (which only some have.)
>>
>> I don't know anything about ATX boards, per se. Maybe ATX boards never
>> remove power from the RAM when you turn the computer off, but that sure
>> seems unlikely, as there's not much point.
>>
>>> What about that
>>> case? According to your logic, even turning the computer off might not
flush
>>> RAM.
>>
>> Well, "flush" RAM is not the correct terminology here. Let me explain:
>>
>> Only by turning the computer off will the entire RAM memory contents
(with
>> some parts still potentially containing some code or data) effectively
>> destroyed.
>>
>> So when you turn the computer back on again, the contents of all the RAM
>> will be random to begin with. That can't happen with a reboot.
>>
>>> Why do you think it is something to take for granted that a reboot
>>> doesn't
>>> clear RAM, since it resets everything else?
>>
>> I think some of this misunderstanding is due to my misuse of the term
>> "clear
>> RAM" (if i said that term) here, as I explained above.
>>
>>> What use is the data contained
>>> therein? What reason would the designers have for maintaining that data
>>> through a reboot?
>>
>> But rebooting does not wipe out the contents of all the RAM. It's not
a
>> question of "trying to maintain the data" - you're missing my point.
>> It's
>> rather that some of it is still left there.
>>
>>> Why wouldn't the juice be momentarily cut from RAM like it
>>> is for nearly everything else. Or does a reboot even do that at all, for
any
>>> component?
>>
>> AFAIK, rebooting does NOT remove the *power* from all the RAM chips.
>> And
>> if you don't remove the power from the RAM, some of its data contents
will
>> still remain, (unless you have some program that deliberately writes data
>> into all the cells, which would be a separate utility (like to check out
>> the
>> RAM).
>>
>>> Yes I want a cite or three. I want to learn more about it.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>
>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>> news:uDkCodh5HHA.5164@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>> Cite? For what? The fact that the only way RAM memory is
completely
>>>> cleared out is to turn off the computer? Surely you jest!
>>>>
>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>> Again... Cite? Make it a good one.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:u3TLi1f5HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
>>>>>>>> Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in terminology):
>>>>>>>> There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is a cold boot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you don't
>>>>>>>> have to press any button to restart.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets" (Livingston
>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>> Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does, but
it
>>>>>>> doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart Windows
98.
>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>> restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree with you
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> it is no different from a cold boot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you're wrong, because it does NOT remove any resident code or
data
>>>>>> left
>>>>>> in memory that could be problematic (in some instances). So it is
NOT
>>>>>> "identical", per se, by definition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In addition, it is also not identical because the internal hardware
>>>>>> (electronics) has not been powered off and then back on again, which
>>>>>> could have some relevance for both hardware and software (low level)
>>>>>> issues, in
>>>>>> some instances).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That all being said, the practical results are so similar in MOST
>>>>>> cases
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> it probably don't matter too much.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Q.E.D.

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

OK, I don't know. But what makes the data in RAM change from organized to
pseudo-random? Regardless, what I believe is that this behavior isn't
changed by shutting down and then starting, as opposed to resetting.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
www.grystmill.com

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:uCaQjSo5HHA.5980@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>> I don't buy this "data remains in RAM" or "some of the data remains in
> RAM"
>> or even that it becomes random. Here's the way I look at it, based upon
>> observation and deductive logic. RAM is kept alive by electricity. No
>> electricity, the ones turn to zeros (or vice versa, but it isn't random.)
>
> Let me get this straight. You think that when you turn the computer
> back
> on, the RAM contents are either all ones or all zeros? No way, Jose!
> Go take a peek sometime using debug.
>
> If you take a RAM IC, and power it up (like on a breadboard), the contents
> of its memory locations will be pseudorandom, and will NOT be all ones or
> all zeroes!
>
>> Since the data in RAM isn't worth a damn after a restart, there's no
> reason
>> to keep the RAM alive.
>
> It's not really a question of "alive" or "dead" (some misleading
> terminology
> here).
> Well, ok, technically, if you want to use the term "dead" here, that would
> only apply when power is removed from the RAM chip. We can agree that
> then, and then only, is it dead.
>
>> Either that or nothing happens to RAM when the
>> electricity is cut, it remains in the last-used state, which means that
> even
>
> No, it does NOT remain in the last used state (the contents or data in the
> RAM cells, I mean). But that IS true for ROM, obviously!
>
>> if you shut down, the data is retained. It's one or the other.
>>
>> On an AT board, pushing the reset button momentarily cuts the power
>> supply
>> to the entire system (except that part that's kept alive by the CMOS
>> battery.) AFAICT, a restart accomplishes the same thing via electronic
>> means.
>>
>> With ATX boards, parts of the system are kept alive, to support things
> like
>> Wake-On LAN. But only those parts that are necessary to keep alive while
> the
>> machine is "turned off." RAM isn't one of those components. Resetting or
>> restarting does the same thing to all the rest of the components as it
> does
>> in an AT board -- momentarily cuts power to those components to reset
> them.
>>
>> But maybe I'm totally wrong, I don't know. Again, if you can find a
>> reputable resource that describes all these functions in technical
>> detail,
>> something that takes you through exactly what happens at every step of a
>> startup, shutdown, manual reset and programmatic reset, I'd be very
>> interested. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but if so, I want the real story,
>> not
>> anecdotal evidence or simplistic articles that don't walk me through the
>> processes. I thought I saw a link in this thread to an article that
> claimed
>> the same thing you do, but I can't find it now. I did take a quick glance
> at
>> it, but it didn't offer any more explanation than you have, nor did I
>> recognize it as an established technical resource.
>>
>> I'd do it myself, but I have a lot on my plate for the next few weeks.
> Maybe
>> PCGuide explains it. But I figure since you made the claim, and perhaps
> have
>> more free time than I do, you'd be willing to find the resources and
> settle
>> it once and for all (at least for us.) If you don't want to, that's fine,
>> but I thought you might be willing. I won't be here for a good ten days,
>> anyway, and I'll probably have no access to the NGs, though that isn't
>> certain, so there's no hurry, <s>.
>>
>> (Tired and yawning as I was when I wrote that previous post last night,
>> at
>> midnight, half an hour after I lay down I was wide awake, worrying about
> all
>> the things I have to do this weekend in preparation for a busy trip out
>> of
>> town next week. Go figure.)
>>
>> --
>> Gary S. Terhune
>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>> www.grystmill.com
>>
>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:u6XQyNi5HHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>> I'm usually up a bit late - I'm kinda a nite owl.
>>>
>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>> What makes you say that? I'm serious. I want a reputable cite that
> explains
>>>> it all in gory detail. ATX boards are "kept alive" unless you pull the
> plug
>>>> or turn off the PWS using a switch (which only some have.)
>>>
>>> I don't know anything about ATX boards, per se. Maybe ATX boards never
>>> remove power from the RAM when you turn the computer off, but that sure
>>> seems unlikely, as there's not much point.
>>>
>>>> What about that
>>>> case? According to your logic, even turning the computer off might not
> flush
>>>> RAM.
>>>
>>> Well, "flush" RAM is not the correct terminology here. Let me
>>> explain:
>>>
>>> Only by turning the computer off will the entire RAM memory contents
> (with
>>> some parts still potentially containing some code or data) effectively
>>> destroyed.
>>>
>>> So when you turn the computer back on again, the contents of all the RAM
>>> will be random to begin with. That can't happen with a reboot.
>>>
>>>> Why do you think it is something to take for granted that a reboot
>>>> doesn't
>>>> clear RAM, since it resets everything else?
>>>
>>> I think some of this misunderstanding is due to my misuse of the term
>>> "clear
>>> RAM" (if i said that term) here, as I explained above.
>>>
>>>> What use is the data contained
>>>> therein? What reason would the designers have for maintaining that data
>>>> through a reboot?
>>>
>>> But rebooting does not wipe out the contents of all the RAM. It's not
> a
>>> question of "trying to maintain the data" - you're missing my point.
>>> It's
>>> rather that some of it is still left there.
>>>
>>>> Why wouldn't the juice be momentarily cut from RAM like it
>>>> is for nearly everything else. Or does a reboot even do that at all,
>>>> for
> any
>>>> component?
>>>
>>> AFAIK, rebooting does NOT remove the *power* from all the RAM chips.
>>> And
>>> if you don't remove the power from the RAM, some of its data contents
> will
>>> still remain, (unless you have some program that deliberately writes
>>> data
>>> into all the cells, which would be a separate utility (like to check out
>>> the
>>> RAM).
>>>
>>>> Yes I want a cite or three. I want to learn more about it.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>
>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:uDkCodh5HHA.5164@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Cite? For what? The fact that the only way RAM memory is
> completely
>>>>> cleared out is to turn off the computer? Surely you jest!
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>>> Again... Cite? Make it a good one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:u3TLi1f5HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
>>>>>>>>> Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in terminology):
>>>>>>>>> There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is a cold boot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you
>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> have to press any button to restart.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets"
>>>>>>>> (Livingston
>>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>>> Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does, but
> it
>>>>>>>> doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart Windows
> 98.
>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>> restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree with you
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> it is no different from a cold boot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But you're wrong, because it does NOT remove any resident code or
> data
>>>>>>> left
>>>>>>> in memory that could be problematic (in some instances). So it is
> NOT
>>>>>>> "identical", per se, by definition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In addition, it is also not identical because the internal hardware
>>>>>>> (electronics) has not been powered off and then back on again, which
>>>>>>> could have some relevance for both hardware and software (low level)
>>>>>>> issues, in
>>>>>>> some instances).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That all being said, the practical results are so similar in MOST
>>>>>>> cases
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> it probably don't matter too much.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Q.E.D.
>
>

 

[Bill in Co.]

Well, I've worked with electronics (and am an EE) all these years, as you
probably know, so at least that part just seems so evident to me (probably
from doing this kinda stuff in the lab for sooo many years, lol).

I used the term pseudorandom, as I'm pretty sure it (the data contents of
the RAM) is not completely statistically random, that's all.

When you reboot your computer, you are NOT removing power from the RAM chip,
like you are when you turn it off. And THAT is a critical difference (in
terms of the contents of the RAM cells).

Whether that becomes, or can become, problematic, in some cases, is a
separate issue. .

Gary S. Terhune wrote:
> OK, I don't know. But what makes the data in RAM change from organized to
> pseudo-random? Regardless, what I believe is that this behavior isn't
> changed by shutting down and then starting, as opposed to resetting.
>
> --
> Gary S. Terhune
> MS-MVP Shell/User
> www.grystmill.com
>
> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:uCaQjSo5HHA.5980@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>> I don't buy this "data remains in RAM" or "some of the data remains in
RAM"
>>> or even that it becomes random. Here's the way I look at it, based upon
>>> observation and deductive logic. RAM is kept alive by electricity. No
>>> electricity, the ones turn to zeros (or vice versa, but it isn't
random.)
>>
>> Let me get this straight. You think that when you turn the computer
>> back
>> on, the RAM contents are either all ones or all zeros? No way, Jose!
>> Go take a peek sometime using debug.
>>
>> If you take a RAM IC, and power it up (like on a breadboard), the
contents
>> of its memory locations will be pseudorandom, and will NOT be all ones or
>> all zeroes!
>>
>>> Since the data in RAM isn't worth a damn after a restart, there's no
reason
>>> to keep the RAM alive.
>>
>> It's not really a question of "alive" or "dead" (some misleading
>> terminology
>> here).
>> Well, ok, technically, if you want to use the term "dead" here, that
would
>> only apply when power is removed from the RAM chip. We can agree that
>> then, and then only, is it dead.
>>
>>> Either that or nothing happens to RAM when the
>>> electricity is cut, it remains in the last-used state, which means that
even
>>
>> No, it does NOT remain in the last used state (the contents or data in
the
>> RAM cells, I mean). But that IS true for ROM, obviously!
>>
>>> if you shut down, the data is retained. It's one or the other.
>>>
>>> On an AT board, pushing the reset button momentarily cuts the power
>>> supply
>>> to the entire system (except that part that's kept alive by the CMOS
>>> battery.) AFAICT, a restart accomplishes the same thing via electronic
>>> means.
>>>
>>> With ATX boards, parts of the system are kept alive, to support things
like
>>> Wake-On LAN. But only those parts that are necessary to keep alive while
the
>>> machine is "turned off." RAM isn't one of those components. Resetting or
>>> restarting does the same thing to all the rest of the components as it
does
>>> in an AT board -- momentarily cuts power to those components to reset
them.
>>>
>>> But maybe I'm totally wrong, I don't know. Again, if you can find a
>>> reputable resource that describes all these functions in technical
>>> detail,
>>> something that takes you through exactly what happens at every step of a
>>> startup, shutdown, manual reset and programmatic reset, I'd be very
>>> interested. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but if so, I want the real story,
>>> not
>>> anecdotal evidence or simplistic articles that don't walk me through the
>>> processes. I thought I saw a link in this thread to an article that
claimed
>>> the same thing you do, but I can't find it now. I did take a quick
glance at
>>> it, but it didn't offer any more explanation than you have, nor did I
>>> recognize it as an established technical resource.
>>>
>>> I'd do it myself, but I have a lot on my plate for the next few weeks.
Maybe
>>> PCGuide explains it. But I figure since you made the claim, and perhaps
have
>>> more free time than I do, you'd be willing to find the resources and
settle
>>> it once and for all (at least for us.) If you don't want to, that's
fine,
>>> but I thought you might be willing. I won't be here for a good ten days,
>>> anyway, and I'll probably have no access to the NGs, though that isn't
>>> certain, so there's no hurry, <s>.
>>>
>>> (Tired and yawning as I was when I wrote that previous post last night,
>>> at
>>> midnight, half an hour after I lay down I was wide awake, worrying about
all
>>> the things I have to do this weekend in preparation for a busy trip out
>>> of
>>> town next week. Go figure.)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>
>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>> news:u6XQyNi5HHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>> I'm usually up a bit late - I'm kinda a nite owl.
>>>>
>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>> What makes you say that? I'm serious. I want a reputable cite that
>>>>> explains it all in gory detail. ATX boards are "kept alive" unless you
>>>>> pull the plug or turn off the PWS using a switch (which only some
have.)
>>>>
>>>> I don't know anything about ATX boards, per se. Maybe ATX boards
never
>>>> remove power from the RAM when you turn the computer off, but that sure
>>>> seems unlikely, as there's not much point.
>>>>
>>>>> What about that
>>>>> case? According to your logic, even turning the computer off might not
>>>>> flush RAM.
>>>>
>>>> Well, "flush" RAM is not the correct terminology here. Let me
>>>> explain:
>>>>
>>>> Only by turning the computer off will the entire RAM memory contents
(with
>>>> some parts still potentially containing some code or data) effectively
>>>> destroyed.
>>>>
>>>> So when you turn the computer back on again, the contents of all the
RAM
>>>> will be random to begin with. That can't happen with a reboot.
>>>>
>>>>> Why do you think it is something to take for granted that a reboot
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>> clear RAM, since it resets everything else?
>>>>
>>>> I think some of this misunderstanding is due to my misuse of the term
>>>> "clear
>>>> RAM" (if i said that term) here, as I explained above.
>>>>
>>>>> What use is the data contained
>>>>> therein? What reason would the designers have for maintaining that
data
>>>>> through a reboot?
>>>>
>>>> But rebooting does not wipe out the contents of all the RAM. It's
not a
>>>> question of "trying to maintain the data" - you're missing my point.
>>>> It's
>>>> rather that some of it is still left there.
>>>>
>>>>> Why wouldn't the juice be momentarily cut from RAM like it
>>>>> is for nearly everything else. Or does a reboot even do that at all,
>>>>> for
>> any
>>>>> component?
>>>>
>>>> AFAIK, rebooting does NOT remove the *power* from all the RAM chips.
>>>> And
>>>> if you don't remove the power from the RAM, some of its data contents
will
>>>> still remain, (unless you have some program that deliberately writes
>>>> data
>>>> into all the cells, which would be a separate utility (like to check
out
>>>> the
>>>> RAM).
>>>>
>>>>> Yes I want a cite or three. I want to learn more about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:uDkCodh5HHA.5164@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Cite? For what? The fact that the only way RAM memory is
>>>>>> completely cleared out is to turn off the computer? Surely you
jest!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>>>> Again... Cite? Make it a good one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:u3TLi1f5HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
>>>>>>>>>> Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in terminology):
>>>>>>>>>> There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is a cold boot.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you
>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> have to press any button to restart.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets"
>>>>>>>>> (Livingston
>>>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>>>> Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does, but
it
>>>>>>>>> doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart Windows
98.
>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>> restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree with
you
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> it is no different from a cold boot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But you're wrong, because it does NOT remove any resident code or
data
>>>>>>>> left
>>>>>>>> in memory that could be problematic (in some instances). So it
is
>>>>>>>> NOT "identical", per se, by definition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In addition, it is also not identical because the internal hardware
>>>>>>>> (electronics) has not been powered off and then back on again,
which
>>>>>>>> could have some relevance for both hardware and software (low
level)
>>>>>>>> issues, in
>>>>>>>> some instances).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That all being said, the practical results are so similar in MOST
>>>>>>>> cases
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> it probably don't matter too much.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Q.E.D.

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

What makes the data random? The loss of a "table of contents"? How does
removing power randomize the data if it doesn't change the bits? If it does
change the bits, why not to all ones or all zeros, rather than random?

Resetting (whether manually or programmatically) certainly appears to
interrupt the power to the video card, the sound card, the hard drives...
Why not to the RAM?

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
www.grystmill.com

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ueTGTqo5HHA.3716@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> Well, I've worked with electronics (and am an EE) all these years, as you
> probably know, so at least that part just seems so evident to me (probably
> from doing this kinda stuff in the lab for sooo many years, lol).
>
> I used the term pseudorandom, as I'm pretty sure it (the data contents of
> the RAM) is not completely statistically random, that's all.
>
> When you reboot your computer, you are NOT removing power from the RAM
> chip,
> like you are when you turn it off. And THAT is a critical difference (in
> terms of the contents of the RAM cells).
>
> Whether that becomes, or can become, problematic, in some cases, is a
> separate issue. .
>
> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>> OK, I don't know. But what makes the data in RAM change from organized to
>> pseudo-random? Regardless, what I believe is that this behavior isn't
>> changed by shutting down and then starting, as opposed to resetting.
>>
>> --
>> Gary S. Terhune
>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>> www.grystmill.com
>>
>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:uCaQjSo5HHA.5980@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>> I don't buy this "data remains in RAM" or "some of the data remains in
> RAM"
>>>> or even that it becomes random. Here's the way I look at it, based upon
>>>> observation and deductive logic. RAM is kept alive by electricity. No
>>>> electricity, the ones turn to zeros (or vice versa, but it isn't
> random.)
>>>
>>> Let me get this straight. You think that when you turn the computer
>>> back
>>> on, the RAM contents are either all ones or all zeros? No way, Jose!
>>> Go take a peek sometime using debug.
>>>
>>> If you take a RAM IC, and power it up (like on a breadboard), the
> contents
>>> of its memory locations will be pseudorandom, and will NOT be all ones
>>> or
>>> all zeroes!
>>>
>>>> Since the data in RAM isn't worth a damn after a restart, there's no
> reason
>>>> to keep the RAM alive.
>>>
>>> It's not really a question of "alive" or "dead" (some misleading
>>> terminology
>>> here).
>>> Well, ok, technically, if you want to use the term "dead" here, that
> would
>>> only apply when power is removed from the RAM chip. We can agree that
>>> then, and then only, is it dead.
>>>
>>>> Either that or nothing happens to RAM when the
>>>> electricity is cut, it remains in the last-used state, which means that
> even
>>>
>>> No, it does NOT remain in the last used state (the contents or data in
> the
>>> RAM cells, I mean). But that IS true for ROM, obviously!
>>>
>>>> if you shut down, the data is retained. It's one or the other.
>>>>
>>>> On an AT board, pushing the reset button momentarily cuts the power
>>>> supply
>>>> to the entire system (except that part that's kept alive by the CMOS
>>>> battery.) AFAICT, a restart accomplishes the same thing via electronic
>>>> means.
>>>>
>>>> With ATX boards, parts of the system are kept alive, to support things
> like
>>>> Wake-On LAN. But only those parts that are necessary to keep alive
>>>> while
> the
>>>> machine is "turned off." RAM isn't one of those components. Resetting
>>>> or
>>>> restarting does the same thing to all the rest of the components as it
> does
>>>> in an AT board -- momentarily cuts power to those components to reset
> them.
>>>>
>>>> But maybe I'm totally wrong, I don't know. Again, if you can find a
>>>> reputable resource that describes all these functions in technical
>>>> detail,
>>>> something that takes you through exactly what happens at every step of
>>>> a
>>>> startup, shutdown, manual reset and programmatic reset, I'd be very
>>>> interested. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but if so, I want the real story,
>>>> not
>>>> anecdotal evidence or simplistic articles that don't walk me through
>>>> the
>>>> processes. I thought I saw a link in this thread to an article that
> claimed
>>>> the same thing you do, but I can't find it now. I did take a quick
> glance at
>>>> it, but it didn't offer any more explanation than you have, nor did I
>>>> recognize it as an established technical resource.
>>>>
>>>> I'd do it myself, but I have a lot on my plate for the next few weeks.
> Maybe
>>>> PCGuide explains it. But I figure since you made the claim, and perhaps
> have
>>>> more free time than I do, you'd be willing to find the resources and
> settle
>>>> it once and for all (at least for us.) If you don't want to, that's
> fine,
>>>> but I thought you might be willing. I won't be here for a good ten
>>>> days,
>>>> anyway, and I'll probably have no access to the NGs, though that isn't
>>>> certain, so there's no hurry, <s>.
>>>>
>>>> (Tired and yawning as I was when I wrote that previous post last night,
>>>> at
>>>> midnight, half an hour after I lay down I was wide awake, worrying
>>>> about
> all
>>>> the things I have to do this weekend in preparation for a busy trip out
>>>> of
>>>> town next week. Go figure.)
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>
>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:u6XQyNi5HHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>> I'm usually up a bit late - I'm kinda a nite owl.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>>> What makes you say that? I'm serious. I want a reputable cite that
>>>>>> explains it all in gory detail. ATX boards are "kept alive" unless
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> pull the plug or turn off the PWS using a switch (which only some
> have.)
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know anything about ATX boards, per se. Maybe ATX boards
> never
>>>>> remove power from the RAM when you turn the computer off, but that
>>>>> sure
>>>>> seems unlikely, as there's not much point.
>>>>>
>>>>>> What about that
>>>>>> case? According to your logic, even turning the computer off might
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> flush RAM.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, "flush" RAM is not the correct terminology here. Let me
>>>>> explain:
>>>>>
>>>>> Only by turning the computer off will the entire RAM memory contents
> (with
>>>>> some parts still potentially containing some code or data) effectively
>>>>> destroyed.
>>>>>
>>>>> So when you turn the computer back on again, the contents of all the
> RAM
>>>>> will be random to begin with. That can't happen with a reboot.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Why do you think it is something to take for granted that a reboot
>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>> clear RAM, since it resets everything else?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think some of this misunderstanding is due to my misuse of the term
>>>>> "clear
>>>>> RAM" (if i said that term) here, as I explained above.
>>>>>
>>>>>> What use is the data contained
>>>>>> therein? What reason would the designers have for maintaining that
> data
>>>>>> through a reboot?
>>>>>
>>>>> But rebooting does not wipe out the contents of all the RAM. It's
> not a
>>>>> question of "trying to maintain the data" - you're missing my point.
>>>>> It's
>>>>> rather that some of it is still left there.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Why wouldn't the juice be momentarily cut from RAM like it
>>>>>> is for nearly everything else. Or does a reboot even do that at all,
>>>>>> for
>>> any
>>>>>> component?
>>>>>
>>>>> AFAIK, rebooting does NOT remove the *power* from all the RAM chips.
>>>>> And
>>>>> if you don't remove the power from the RAM, some of its data contents
> will
>>>>> still remain, (unless you have some program that deliberately writes
>>>>> data
>>>>> into all the cells, which would be a separate utility (like to check
> out
>>>>> the
>>>>> RAM).
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes I want a cite or three. I want to learn more about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:uDkCodh5HHA.5164@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> Cite? For what? The fact that the only way RAM memory is
>>>>>>> completely cleared out is to turn off the computer? Surely you
> jest!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>>>>> Again... Cite? Make it a good one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:u3TLi1f5HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
>>>>>>>>>>> Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in terminology):
>>>>>>>>>>> There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is a cold boot.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> have to press any button to restart.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets"
>>>>>>>>>> (Livingston
>>>>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>>>>> Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does,
>>>>>>>>>> but
> it
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart Windows
> 98.
>>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>> restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree with
> you
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> it is no different from a cold boot.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But you're wrong, because it does NOT remove any resident code or
> data
>>>>>>>>> left
>>>>>>>>> in memory that could be problematic (in some instances). So it
> is
>>>>>>>>> NOT "identical", per se, by definition.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In addition, it is also not identical because the internal
>>>>>>>>> hardware
>>>>>>>>> (electronics) has not been powered off and then back on again,
> which
>>>>>>>>> could have some relevance for both hardware and software (low
> level)
>>>>>>>>> issues, in
>>>>>>>>> some instances).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That all being said, the practical results are so similar in MOST
>>>>>>>>> cases
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> it probably don't matter too much.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Q.E.D.
>
>

 

[Bill in Co.]

Gary S. Terhune wrote:
> What makes the data random?

The question is a bit backwards. Why wouldn't it be random? More on
that below.

> The loss of a "table of contents"? How does
> removing power randomize the data if it doesn't change the bits?

Where did THAT come from? There are no "bits", per se, when the power is
off. It has nothing to do with a table of contents. Memory cells can
store a logic 1 or a logic 0, but only when they have power going to them.
If you remove the power, the data is gone. By reapplying power, the cells
come up in some pseudorandom state, since they haven't had anything written
into their cells yet.

> If it does change the bits, why not to all ones or all zeros, rather than
random?

The question is backwards. Why would they come up as all ones or all
zeroes? They're not all identical! Just like snowflakes, there are
individual differences. Just like white noise consists of a mix of random
frequencies. (A whole slew of them, actually).

> Resetting (whether manually or programmatically) certainly appears to
> interrupt the power to the video card, the sound card, the hard drives...
> Why not to the RAM?

The only way to interrupt the power to anything is to *remove* the power,
which is done by turning the computer or appliance off. And the power
supply voltage goes to zero.

> --
> Gary S. Terhune
> MS-MVP Shell/User
> www.grystmill.com
>
> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:ueTGTqo5HHA.3716@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> Well, I've worked with electronics (and am an EE) all these years, as you
>> probably know, so at least that part just seems so evident to me
(probably
>> from doing this kinda stuff in the lab for sooo many years, lol).
>>
>> I used the term pseudorandom, as I'm pretty sure it (the data contents of
>> the RAM) is not completely statistically random, that's all.
>>
>> When you reboot your computer, you are NOT removing power from the RAM
>> chip, like you are when you turn it off. And THAT is a critical
difference (in
>> terms of the contents of the RAM cells).
>>
>> Whether that becomes, or can become, problematic, in some cases, is a
>> separate issue. .
>>
>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>> OK, I don't know. But what makes the data in RAM change from organized
to
>>> pseudo-random? Regardless, what I believe is that this behavior isn't
>>> changed by shutting down and then starting, as opposed to resetting.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>
>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>> news:uCaQjSo5HHA.5980@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>> I don't buy this "data remains in RAM" or "some of the data remains in
>>>>> RAM" or even that it becomes random. Here's the way I look at it,
based
>>>>> upon observation and deductive logic. RAM is kept alive by
electricity. No
>>>>> electricity, the ones turn to zeros (or vice versa, but it isn't
random.)
>>>>
>>>> Let me get this straight. You think that when you turn the computer
>>>> back
>>>> on, the RAM contents are either all ones or all zeros? No way, Jose!
>>>> Go take a peek sometime using debug.
>>>>
>>>> If you take a RAM IC, and power it up (like on a breadboard), the
contents
>>>> of its memory locations will be pseudorandom, and will NOT be all ones
>>>> or
>>>> all zeroes!
>>>>
>>>>> Since the data in RAM isn't worth a damn after a restart, there's no
>>>>> reason to keep the RAM alive.
>>>>
>>>> It's not really a question of "alive" or "dead" (some misleading
>>>> terminology
>>>> here).
>>>> Well, ok, technically, if you want to use the term "dead" here, that
would
>>>> only apply when power is removed from the RAM chip. We can agree
that
>>>> then, and then only, is it dead.
>>>>
>>>>> Either that or nothing happens to RAM when the
>>>>> electricity is cut, it remains in the last-used state, which means
that
>>>>> even
>>>>
>>>> No, it does NOT remain in the last used state (the contents or data in
the
>>>> RAM cells, I mean). But that IS true for ROM, obviously!
>>>>
>>>>> if you shut down, the data is retained. It's one or the other.
>>>>>
>>>>> On an AT board, pushing the reset button momentarily cuts the power
>>>>> supply
>>>>> to the entire system (except that part that's kept alive by the CMOS
>>>>> battery.) AFAICT, a restart accomplishes the same thing via electronic
>>>>> means.
>>>>>
>>>>> With ATX boards, parts of the system are kept alive, to support things
>>>>> like Wake-On LAN. But only those parts that are necessary to keep
alive
>>>>> while
>> the
>>>>> machine is "turned off." RAM isn't one of those components. Resetting
>>>>> or
>>>>> restarting does the same thing to all the rest of the components as it
>>>>> does in an AT board -- momentarily cuts power to those components to
>>>>> reset them.
>>>>>
>>>>> But maybe I'm totally wrong, I don't know. Again, if you can find a
>>>>> reputable resource that describes all these functions in technical
>>>>> detail,
>>>>> something that takes you through exactly what happens at every step of
>>>>> a
>>>>> startup, shutdown, manual reset and programmatic reset, I'd be very
>>>>> interested. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but if so, I want the real story,
>>>>> not
>>>>> anecdotal evidence or simplistic articles that don't walk me through
>>>>> the
>>>>> processes. I thought I saw a link in this thread to an article that
>>>>> claimed the same thing you do, but I can't find it now. I did take a
>>>>> quick glance at it, but it didn't offer any more explanation than you
>>>>> have, nor did I recognize it as an established technical resource.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd do it myself, but I have a lot on my plate for the next few weeks.
>>>>> Maybe PCGuide explains it. But I figure since you made the claim, and
>>>>> perhaps have more free time than I do, you'd be willing to find the
>>>>> resources and settle it once and for all (at least for us.) If you
don't
>>>>> want to, that's fine, but I thought you might be willing. I won't be
here
>>>>> for a good ten days,
>>>>> anyway, and I'll probably have no access to the NGs, though that isn't
>>>>> certain, so there's no hurry, <s>.
>>>>>
>>>>> (Tired and yawning as I was when I wrote that previous post last
night,
>>>>> at
>>>>> midnight, half an hour after I lay down I was wide awake, worrying
>>>>> about
>> all
>>>>> the things I have to do this weekend in preparation for a busy trip
out
>>>>> of
>>>>> town next week. Go figure.)
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:u6XQyNi5HHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> I'm usually up a bit late - I'm kinda a nite owl.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>>>> What makes you say that? I'm serious. I want a reputable cite that
>>>>>>> explains it all in gory detail. ATX boards are "kept alive" unless
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> pull the plug or turn off the PWS using a switch (which only some
have.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know anything about ATX boards, per se. Maybe ATX boards
never
>>>>>> remove power from the RAM when you turn the computer off, but that
>>>>>> sure
>>>>>> seems unlikely, as there's not much point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What about that
>>>>>>> case? According to your logic, even turning the computer off might
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> flush RAM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, "flush" RAM is not the correct terminology here. Let me
>>>>>> explain:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only by turning the computer off will the entire RAM memory contents
>>>>>> (with some parts still potentially containing some code or data)
>>>>>> effectively destroyed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So when you turn the computer back on again, the contents of all the
RAM
>>>>>> will be random to begin with. That can't happen with a reboot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why do you think it is something to take for granted that a reboot
>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>> clear RAM, since it resets everything else?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think some of this misunderstanding is due to my misuse of the term
>>>>>> "clear
>>>>>> RAM" (if i said that term) here, as I explained above.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What use is the data contained
>>>>>>> therein? What reason would the designers have for maintaining that
data
>>>>>>> through a reboot?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But rebooting does not wipe out the contents of all the RAM. It's
not
>>>>>> a question of "trying to maintain the data" - you're missing my
point.
>>>>>> It's
>>>>>> rather that some of it is still left there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why wouldn't the juice be momentarily cut from RAM like it
>>>>>>> is for nearly everything else. Or does a reboot even do that at all,
>>>>>>> for
>>>> any
>>>>>>> component?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AFAIK, rebooting does NOT remove the *power* from all the RAM chips.
>>>>>> And
>>>>>> if you don't remove the power from the RAM, some of its data contents
>>>>>> will still remain, (unless you have some program that deliberately
writes
>>>>>> data
>>>>>> into all the cells, which would be a separate utility (like to check
out
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> RAM).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes I want a cite or three. I want to learn more about it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:uDkCodh5HHA.5164@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> Cite? For what? The fact that the only way RAM memory is
>>>>>>>> completely cleared out is to turn off the computer? Surely you
>>>>>>>> jest!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Again... Cite? Make it a good one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:u3TLi1f5HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in
terminology):
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That is a cold boot.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> have to press any button to restart.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets"
>>>>>>>>>>> (Livingston
>>>>>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>>>>>> Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart
Windows
>>>>>>>>>>> 98. It
>>>>>>>>>>> restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree with
you
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> it is no different from a cold boot.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But you're wrong, because it does NOT remove any resident code or
>>>>>>>>>> data left
>>>>>>>>>> in memory that could be problematic (in some instances). So it
is
>>>>>>>>>> NOT "identical", per se, by definition.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In addition, it is also not identical because the internal
>>>>>>>>>> hardware
>>>>>>>>>> (electronics) has not been powered off and then back on again,
which
>>>>>>>>>> could have some relevance for both hardware and software (low
level)
>>>>>>>>>> issues, in
>>>>>>>>>> some instances).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That all being said, the practical results are so similar in MOST
>>>>>>>>>> cases
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> it probably don't matter too much.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Q.E.D.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:12:55 -0400, "PCR" <pcrrcp@netzero.net> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

>"Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
>| Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in terminology):
>| There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
>|
>| 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
>
>That is a cold boot.
>
>| 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you don't
>| have to press any button to restart.
>
>This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets" (Livingston &
>Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does, but it
>doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart Windows 98. It
>restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
>
>Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree with you that
>it is no different from a cold boot.

A Shutdown -> Restart on my socket 7 box causes the machine to POST
and test the RAM. Hitting Ctrl-Alt-Del twice from within Windows
appears to do the same thing. However, a Ctrl-Alt-Del from a DOS
prompt (in real DOS mode) results in POSTing without a RAM check.

I suspect that in GUI mode the Ctrl-Alt-Del combo is trapped by
Windows whereas in DOS mode it is trapped by the BIOS or the 8042
keyboard controller.

>| 3. So-called "Warm" or "Soft" restart (not reboot), which only
>| restarts Windows, while DOS remains resident. Common in Win95, and
>| supported in Win98, mostly for those apps from 95 days that would
>| perform such a restart as part of Setup. Yes, it's possible to
>| manually do it in Win98, but I forget how.
>
>Could it be this "undocumented" feature from the book (same page)...?...
>
>"To restart Windows 98 quickly without going through the warm reboot
>process, mark Restart, and then hold down your Shift key while clicking
>the OK button in the Shut Down Windows dialog box."
>
>I intend to try it later!

It works on my machine. AFAICT the GUI is restarted but nothing else
is touched. I say this because my autoexec.bat file is structured like
this:

<code that executes before GUI starts>
win
<code that executes after GUI terminates>

Neither block of code is executed during the warm restart.

BTW, the last block of code is not executed after a Shutdown ->
Restart, either.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:OLaVzxp5HHA.3916@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>> What makes the data random?
>
> The question is a bit backwards. Why wouldn't it be random? More on
> that below.
>
>> The loss of a "table of contents"? How does
>> removing power randomize the data if it doesn't change the bits?
>
> Where did THAT come from? There are no "bits", per se, when the power
> is
> off. It has nothing to do with a table of contents. Memory cells can
> store a logic 1 or a logic 0, but only when they have power going to them.
> If you remove the power, the data is gone. By reapplying power, the
> cells
> come up in some pseudorandom state, since they haven't had anything
> written
> into their cells yet.

OK, memory cells are either 0 or 1. That their unpowered sate is random
doesn't make sense to me, nor do I see why restoring power would make them
randomly be 0's or 1's, but OK. That's one of the things I'd like to see in
an authoratative article.

>> If it does change the bits, why not to all ones or all zeros, rather than
> random?
>
> The question is backwards. Why would they come up as all ones or all
> zeroes? They're not all identical! Just like snowflakes, there are
> individual differences. Just like white noise consists of a mix of
> random
> frequencies. (A whole slew of them, actually).

I don't buy that, but if you can show me some documentation... Memory cells
are randomly positive or negative in charge absent power? I don't know a lot
about the subject, but it's counter intuitive.

>> Resetting (whether manually or programmatically) certainly appears to
>> interrupt the power to the video card, the sound card, the hard drives...
>> Why not to the RAM?
>
> The only way to interrupt the power to anything is to *remove* the power,
> which is done by turning the computer or appliance off. And the power
> supply voltage goes to zero.

And I say that when you do a reset, whether by pushing the reset button or
via an electronic signal, the power to the motherboard (in AT boards) IS
momentarily cut, disrupting the power between the PWS and the mobo. Makes a
lot more sense to me than your contention. If not, please explain how the
devices ARE reset. Some complicated signal sent to each one to reset, while
the mobo remains alive? Again, I'd like to see authoritative documentation,
both for AT and ATX boards, though we can stick to AT if you wish.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
www.grystmill.com

>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:ueTGTqo5HHA.3716@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>> Well, I've worked with electronics (and am an EE) all these years, as
>>> you
>>> probably know, so at least that part just seems so evident to me
> (probably
>>> from doing this kinda stuff in the lab for sooo many years, lol).
>>>
>>> I used the term pseudorandom, as I'm pretty sure it (the data contents
>>> of
>>> the RAM) is not completely statistically random, that's all.
>>>
>>> When you reboot your computer, you are NOT removing power from the RAM
>>> chip, like you are when you turn it off. And THAT is a critical
> difference (in
>>> terms of the contents of the RAM cells).
>>>
>>> Whether that becomes, or can become, problematic, in some cases, is a
>>> separate issue. .
>>>
>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>> OK, I don't know. But what makes the data in RAM change from organized
> to
>>>> pseudo-random? Regardless, what I believe is that this behavior isn't
>>>> changed by shutting down and then starting, as opposed to resetting.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>
>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:uCaQjSo5HHA.5980@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>>> I don't buy this "data remains in RAM" or "some of the data remains
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> RAM" or even that it becomes random. Here's the way I look at it,
> based
>>>>>> upon observation and deductive logic. RAM is kept alive by
> electricity. No
>>>>>> electricity, the ones turn to zeros (or vice versa, but it isn't
> random.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me get this straight. You think that when you turn the computer
>>>>> back
>>>>> on, the RAM contents are either all ones or all zeros? No way,
>>>>> Jose!
>>>>> Go take a peek sometime using debug.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you take a RAM IC, and power it up (like on a breadboard), the
> contents
>>>>> of its memory locations will be pseudorandom, and will NOT be all ones
>>>>> or
>>>>> all zeroes!
>>>>>
>>>>>> Since the data in RAM isn't worth a damn after a restart, there's no
>>>>>> reason to keep the RAM alive.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not really a question of "alive" or "dead" (some misleading
>>>>> terminology
>>>>> here).
>>>>> Well, ok, technically, if you want to use the term "dead" here, that
> would
>>>>> only apply when power is removed from the RAM chip. We can agree
> that
>>>>> then, and then only, is it dead.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Either that or nothing happens to RAM when the
>>>>>> electricity is cut, it remains in the last-used state, which means
> that
>>>>>> even
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it does NOT remain in the last used state (the contents or data in
> the
>>>>> RAM cells, I mean). But that IS true for ROM, obviously!
>>>>>
>>>>>> if you shut down, the data is retained. It's one or the other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On an AT board, pushing the reset button momentarily cuts the power
>>>>>> supply
>>>>>> to the entire system (except that part that's kept alive by the CMOS
>>>>>> battery.) AFAICT, a restart accomplishes the same thing via
>>>>>> electronic
>>>>>> means.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With ATX boards, parts of the system are kept alive, to support
>>>>>> things
>>>>>> like Wake-On LAN. But only those parts that are necessary to keep
> alive
>>>>>> while
>>> the
>>>>>> machine is "turned off." RAM isn't one of those components. Resetting
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> restarting does the same thing to all the rest of the components as
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> does in an AT board -- momentarily cuts power to those components to
>>>>>> reset them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But maybe I'm totally wrong, I don't know. Again, if you can find a
>>>>>> reputable resource that describes all these functions in technical
>>>>>> detail,
>>>>>> something that takes you through exactly what happens at every step
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> startup, shutdown, manual reset and programmatic reset, I'd be very
>>>>>> interested. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but if so, I want the real
>>>>>> story,
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> anecdotal evidence or simplistic articles that don't walk me through
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> processes. I thought I saw a link in this thread to an article that
>>>>>> claimed the same thing you do, but I can't find it now. I did take a
>>>>>> quick glance at it, but it didn't offer any more explanation than you
>>>>>> have, nor did I recognize it as an established technical resource.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd do it myself, but I have a lot on my plate for the next few
>>>>>> weeks.
>>>>>> Maybe PCGuide explains it. But I figure since you made the claim, and
>>>>>> perhaps have more free time than I do, you'd be willing to find the
>>>>>> resources and settle it once and for all (at least for us.) If you
> don't
>>>>>> want to, that's fine, but I thought you might be willing. I won't be
> here
>>>>>> for a good ten days,
>>>>>> anyway, and I'll probably have no access to the NGs, though that
>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>> certain, so there's no hurry, <s>.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Tired and yawning as I was when I wrote that previous post last
> night,
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> midnight, half an hour after I lay down I was wide awake, worrying
>>>>>> about
>>> all
>>>>>> the things I have to do this weekend in preparation for a busy trip
> out
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> town next week. Go figure.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:u6XQyNi5HHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> I'm usually up a bit late - I'm kinda a nite owl.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>>>>> What makes you say that? I'm serious. I want a reputable cite that
>>>>>>>> explains it all in gory detail. ATX boards are "kept alive" unless
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> pull the plug or turn off the PWS using a switch (which only some
> have.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know anything about ATX boards, per se. Maybe ATX boards
> never
>>>>>>> remove power from the RAM when you turn the computer off, but that
>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>> seems unlikely, as there's not much point.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What about that
>>>>>>>> case? According to your logic, even turning the computer off might
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> flush RAM.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, "flush" RAM is not the correct terminology here. Let me
>>>>>>> explain:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only by turning the computer off will the entire RAM memory contents
>>>>>>> (with some parts still potentially containing some code or data)
>>>>>>> effectively destroyed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So when you turn the computer back on again, the contents of all the
> RAM
>>>>>>> will be random to begin with. That can't happen with a reboot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why do you think it is something to take for granted that a reboot
>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>> clear RAM, since it resets everything else?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think some of this misunderstanding is due to my misuse of the
>>>>>>> term
>>>>>>> "clear
>>>>>>> RAM" (if i said that term) here, as I explained above.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What use is the data contained
>>>>>>>> therein? What reason would the designers have for maintaining that
> data
>>>>>>>> through a reboot?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But rebooting does not wipe out the contents of all the RAM. It's
> not
>>>>>>> a question of "trying to maintain the data" - you're missing my
> point.
>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>> rather that some of it is still left there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why wouldn't the juice be momentarily cut from RAM like it
>>>>>>>> is for nearly everything else. Or does a reboot even do that at
>>>>>>>> all,
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>> any
>>>>>>>> component?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AFAIK, rebooting does NOT remove the *power* from all the RAM chips.
>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>> if you don't remove the power from the RAM, some of its data
>>>>>>> contents
>>>>>>> will still remain, (unless you have some program that deliberately
> writes
>>>>>>> data
>>>>>>> into all the cells, which would be a separate utility (like to check
> out
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> RAM).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes I want a cite or three. I want to learn more about it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:uDkCodh5HHA.5164@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>> Cite? For what? The fact that the only way RAM memory is
>>>>>>>>> completely cleared out is to turn off the computer? Surely
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> jest!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Again... Cite? Make it a good one.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>>>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>>>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:u3TLi1f5HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in
> terminology):
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a cold boot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to press any button to restart.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets"
>>>>>>>>>>>> (Livingston
>>>>>>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>>>>>>> Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart
> Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>> 98. It
>>>>>>>>>>>> restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree with
> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> it is no different from a cold boot.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But you're wrong, because it does NOT remove any resident code
>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> data left
>>>>>>>>>>> in memory that could be problematic (in some instances). So
>>>>>>>>>>> it
> is
>>>>>>>>>>> NOT "identical", per se, by definition.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In addition, it is also not identical because the internal
>>>>>>>>>>> hardware
>>>>>>>>>>> (electronics) has not been powered off and then back on again,
> which
>>>>>>>>>>> could have some relevance for both hardware and software (low
> level)
>>>>>>>>>>> issues, in
>>>>>>>>>>> some instances).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That all being said, the practical results are so similar in
>>>>>>>>>>> MOST
>>>>>>>>>>> cases
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> it probably don't matter too much.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Q.E.D.
>
>

 

[Bill in Co.]

Gary S. Terhune wrote:
> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:OLaVzxp5HHA.3916@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>> What makes the data random?
>>
>> The question is a bit backwards. Why wouldn't it be random? More on
>> that below.
>>
>>> The loss of a "table of contents"? How does
>>> removing power randomize the data if it doesn't change the bits?
>>
>> Where did THAT come from? There are no "bits", per se, when the power
>> is off. It has nothing to do with a table of contents. Memory cells
can
>> store a logic 1 or a logic 0, but only when they have power going to
them.
>> If you remove the power, the data is gone. By reapplying power, the
>> cells come up in some pseudorandom state, since they haven't had anything
>> written into their cells yet.
>
> OK, memory cells are either 0 or 1.

ONLY when power is applied to the chip. Then, and then only.

> That their unpowered sate is random

No, not their unpowered state. In their "repowered up" state. There is
a crucial distinction here. (In the unpowered state the whole statement
is meaningless).

> doesn't make sense to me, nor do I see why restoring power would make them
> randomly be 0's or 1's, but OK. That's one of the things I'd like to see
in
> an authoratative article.

Well, why don't you go verify it yourself? By a few static RAM chips,
apply power, go look at their data outputs as you apply consecutive
addresses for each cell. Then remove power (the requisite power supply
voltage(s) to the IC so it can operate), then reapply power, and repeat the
experiment. Small static CMOS RAM chips aren't that expensive (ones you
can use for these experiments like in school labs).

OR

Use debug to examine a bunch of random memory locations for RAM in your
computer and print the screen for this. Then turn off the computer, wait
a few seconds, and then turn it back on it again, and go check out those
same addresses again (and do this for a significant number of completely
scattered RAM address banks).

>>> If it does change the bits, why not to all ones or all zeros, rather
than
>>> random?
>>
>> The question is backwards. Why would they come up as all ones or all
>> zeroes? They're not all identical! Just like snowflakes, there are
>> individual differences. Just like white noise consists of a mix of
>> random frequencies. (A whole slew of them, actually).
>
> I don't buy that, but if you can show me some documentation... Memory
cells
> are randomly positive or negative in charge absent power? I don't know a
lot
> about the subject, but it's counter intuitive.

See above (and more below).

>>> Resetting (whether manually or programmatically) certainly appears to
>>> interrupt the power to the video card, the sound card, the hard
drives...
>>> Why not to the RAM?
>>
>> The only way to interrupt the power to anything is to *remove* the power,
>> which is done by turning the computer or appliance off. And the power
>> supply voltage goes to zero.
>
> And I say that when you do a reset, whether by pushing the reset button or
> via an electronic signal, the power to the motherboard (in AT boards) IS
> momentarily cut, disrupting the power between the PWS and the mobo.

The only way to remove power (the power supply voltages) from all the IC's
on your motherboard and cards is to turn off the power (unless you have a
switch that actually turns off its power and kills it).

Pushing a reset switch is (or used to be) an action that toggles or switches
the reset line pin on the microprocessor. Microprocessors have a hardware
reset pin, which, when momentarily grounded, resets the microprocessor IC,
and sends it into its microcoded reset routine, by its sending out some
predefined addresses to the address bus).

> Makes a
> lot more sense to me than your contention. If not, please explain how the
> devices ARE reset. Some complicated signal sent to each one to reset,
while
> the mobo remains alive? Again, I'd like to see authoritative
documentation,
> both for AT and ATX boards, though we can stick to AT if you wish.
>
> --
> Gary S. Terhune
> MS-MVP Shell/User
> www.grystmill.com
>
>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>> news:ueTGTqo5HHA.3716@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>> Well, I've worked with electronics (and am an EE) all these years, as
>>>> you
>>>> probably know, so at least that part just seems so evident to me
(probably
>>>> from doing this kinda stuff in the lab for sooo many years, lol).
>>>>
>>>> I used the term pseudorandom, as I'm pretty sure it (the data contents
>>>> of
>>>> the RAM) is not completely statistically random, that's all.
>>>>
>>>> When you reboot your computer, you are NOT removing power from the RAM
>>>> chip, like you are when you turn it off. And THAT is a critical
>>>> difference (in terms of the contents of the RAM cells).
>>>>
>>>> Whether that becomes, or can become, problematic, in some cases, is a
>>>> separate issue. .
>>>>
>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>> OK, I don't know. But what makes the data in RAM change from organized
to
>>>>> pseudo-random? Regardless, what I believe is that this behavior isn't
>>>>> changed by shutting down and then starting, as opposed to resetting.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:uCaQjSo5HHA.5980@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't buy this "data remains in RAM" or "some of the data remains
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> RAM" or even that it becomes random. Here's the way I look at it,
based
>>>>>>> upon observation and deductive logic. RAM is kept alive by
electricity.
>>>>>>> No electricity, the ones turn to zeros (or vice versa, but it isn't
>>>>>>> random.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let me get this straight. You think that when you turn the
computer
>>>>>> back
>>>>>> on, the RAM contents are either all ones or all zeros? No way,
>>>>>> Jose!
>>>>>> Go take a peek sometime using debug.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you take a RAM IC, and power it up (like on a breadboard), the
>>>>>> contents of its memory locations will be pseudorandom, and will NOT
be
>>>>>> all ones or
>>>>>> all zeroes!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since the data in RAM isn't worth a damn after a restart, there's no
>>>>>>> reason to keep the RAM alive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not really a question of "alive" or "dead" (some misleading
>>>>>> terminology
>>>>>> here).
>>>>>> Well, ok, technically, if you want to use the term "dead" here, that
>>>>>> would only apply when power is removed from the RAM chip. We can
>>>>>> agree that then, and then only, is it dead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Either that or nothing happens to RAM when the
>>>>>>> electricity is cut, it remains in the last-used state, which means
that
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it does NOT remain in the last used state (the contents or data
in
>>>>>> the RAM cells, I mean). But that IS true for ROM, obviously!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> if you shut down, the data is retained. It's one or the other.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On an AT board, pushing the reset button momentarily cuts the power
>>>>>>> supply
>>>>>>> to the entire system (except that part that's kept alive by the CMOS
>>>>>>> battery.) AFAICT, a restart accomplishes the same thing via
>>>>>>> electronic
>>>>>>> means.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With ATX boards, parts of the system are kept alive, to support
>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>> like Wake-On LAN. But only those parts that are necessary to keep
alive
>>>>>>> while
>>>> the
>>>>>>> machine is "turned off." RAM isn't one of those components.
Resetting
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> restarting does the same thing to all the rest of the components as
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> does in an AT board -- momentarily cuts power to those components to
>>>>>>> reset them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But maybe I'm totally wrong, I don't know. Again, if you can find a
>>>>>>> reputable resource that describes all these functions in technical
>>>>>>> detail,
>>>>>>> something that takes you through exactly what happens at every step
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> startup, shutdown, manual reset and programmatic reset, I'd be very
>>>>>>> interested. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but if so, I want the real
>>>>>>> story,
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> anecdotal evidence or simplistic articles that don't walk me through
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> processes. I thought I saw a link in this thread to an article that
>>>>>>> claimed the same thing you do, but I can't find it now. I did take a
>>>>>>> quick glance at it, but it didn't offer any more explanation than
you
>>>>>>> have, nor did I recognize it as an established technical resource.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd do it myself, but I have a lot on my plate for the next few
>>>>>>> weeks.
>>>>>>> Maybe PCGuide explains it. But I figure since you made the claim,
and
>>>>>>> perhaps have more free time than I do, you'd be willing to find the
>>>>>>> resources and settle it once and for all (at least for us.) If you
don't
>>>>>>> want to, that's fine, but I thought you might be willing. I won't be
>>>>>>> here for a good ten days,
>>>>>>> anyway, and I'll probably have no access to the NGs, though that
>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>> certain, so there's no hurry, <s>.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Tired and yawning as I was when I wrote that previous post last
night,
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> midnight, half an hour after I lay down I was wide awake, worrying
>>>>>>> about
>>>> all
>>>>>>> the things I have to do this weekend in preparation for a busy trip
out
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> town next week. Go figure.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:u6XQyNi5HHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> I'm usually up a bit late - I'm kinda a nite owl.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>>>>>> What makes you say that? I'm serious. I want a reputable cite that
>>>>>>>>> explains it all in gory detail. ATX boards are "kept alive" unless
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> pull the plug or turn off the PWS using a switch (which only some
>>>>>>>>> have.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know anything about ATX boards, per se. Maybe ATX boards
>>>>>>>> never remove power from the RAM when you turn the computer off, but
>>>>>>>> that sure
>>>>>>>> seems unlikely, as there's not much point.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What about that
>>>>>>>>> case? According to your logic, even turning the computer off might
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> flush RAM.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, "flush" RAM is not the correct terminology here. Let me
>>>>>>>> explain:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Only by turning the computer off will the entire RAM memory
contents
>>>>>>>> (with some parts still potentially containing some code or data)
>>>>>>>> effectively destroyed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So when you turn the computer back on again, the contents of all
the
>>>>>>>> RAM will be random to begin with. That can't happen with a
reboot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why do you think it is something to take for granted that a reboot
>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>> clear RAM, since it resets everything else?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think some of this misunderstanding is due to my misuse of the
>>>>>>>> term
>>>>>>>> "clear
>>>>>>>> RAM" (if i said that term) here, as I explained above.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What use is the data contained
>>>>>>>>> therein? What reason would the designers have for maintaining that
>>>>>>>>> data through a reboot?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But rebooting does not wipe out the contents of all the RAM.
It's
>>>>>>>> not a question of "trying to maintain the data" - you're missing my
>>>>>>>> point. It's
>>>>>>>> rather that some of it is still left there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why wouldn't the juice be momentarily cut from RAM like it
>>>>>>>>> is for nearly everything else. Or does a reboot even do that at
>>>>>>>>> all,
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>> component?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> AFAIK, rebooting does NOT remove the *power* from all the RAM
chips.
>>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>>> if you don't remove the power from the RAM, some of its data
>>>>>>>> contents
>>>>>>>> will still remain, (unless you have some program that deliberately
>>>>>>>> writes data
>>>>>>>> into all the cells, which would be a separate utility (like to
check
>>>>>>>> out the
>>>>>>>> RAM).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes I want a cite or three. I want to learn more about it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:uDkCodh5HHA.5164@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>> Cite? For what? The fact that the only way RAM memory is
>>>>>>>>>> completely cleared out is to turn off the computer? Surely
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> jest!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Again... Cite? Make it a good one.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>>>>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>>>>>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:u3TLi1f5HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:ee6leLG5HHA.4584@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just to clarify (and to correct my own mistakes in
terminology):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are three ways to restart a Windows 98 or 95 computer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Shutdown, and then restart the machine manually.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a cold boot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Restart or Reboot, which does the same as above except you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to press any button to restart.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This one is called a "warm boot" by "Windows 98 Secrets"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Livingston
>>>>>>>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Straub), p.297... "This option works just like Shut Down does,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't require that you press Ctrl-Alt-Delete to restart
Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 98. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>> restarts Windows 98 with a warm boot."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since this does reach back to BIOS & post, I tend to agree
with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is no different from a cold boot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But you're wrong, because it does NOT remove any resident code
>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>> data left
>>>>>>>>>>>> in memory that could be problematic (in some instances). So
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> NOT "identical", per se, by definition.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In addition, it is also not identical because the internal
>>>>>>>>>>>> hardware
>>>>>>>>>>>> (electronics) has not been powered off and then back on again,
>>>>>>>>>>>> which could have some relevance for both hardware and software
>>>>>>>>>>>> (low level) issues, in
>>>>>>>>>>>> some instances).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That all being said, the practical results are so similar in
>>>>>>>>>>>> MOST
>>>>>>>>>>>> cases
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> it probably don't matter too much.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Q.E.D.

 

[=?Utf-8?B?RGFu?=]

It reminds me of when I worked at Target and we used LRT's and sometimes the
machine needed a full cold reboot rather than just a warm reboot. If I
remember correctly, the warm reboot was just a reset as compared to the cold
reboot which was a shutdown, wait a little bit and then restart the LRT.
Some of the problems with the LRT's could only be solved with a cold reboot.
I think now Target already has a sucessor that they use to this technology
but interesting to me just the same. I had no idea that it was relevant with
plain old computers as well.

"Bill in Co." wrote:

> It IS different, because it doesn't require TWO warm reboots. Just one
> cold reboot.
>
> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
> > Huh? Turning off the machine then back on isn't any different than a
> reboot.
> > When you delete ShellIconCache, it isn't rebuilt until the second shut
> down
> > or reboot, whichever you choose, no matter how you get it to that point.
> >
> > --
> > Gary S. Terhune
> > MS-MVP Shell/User
> > www.grystmill.com
> >
> > "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:u1p9cTE5HHA.5796@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> >> lb wrote:
> >>> On Aug 21, 3:19 pm, H...@invalid.com wrote:
> >>>> This is Win98se
> >>>> For some reason there is some icon confusion going on. For example, I
> >>>> have a program called "Hosts Toggle" (to turn on and off the hosts
> >>>> file). Right now, all files with the PDF extension have the icon from
> >>>> "Hosts Toggle". Text files (.txt) have an icon from another program
> >>>> instead of the notepad icon.
> >>>>
> >>>> The next time I reboot, the icons will be different and some other
> >>>> extension will have the wrong icon, for example last night all the
> >>>> .jpg files had an icon from another folder on my desktop.
> >>>>
> >>>> Everything else is working fine. Why is this happeningt and how do I
> >>>> fix it?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks
> >>>> HN
> >>>
> >>> If you have TweakUI, you can go to the repair tab and repair the
> >>> icons.
> >>>
> >>> Your shelliconcache file may be too small or damaged. You can delete
> >>> it and windows will make a new one on the 2nd boot.
> >>
> >> Or just turn off the computer, and then turn it on a few seconds later,
> >> and
> >> you won't have to reboot twice - or thrice (possibly).
> >>
> >>> You can increase the size with programs such as Cacheman or X Setup.
> >>> Both of these have older free versions. Post if you do not have any
> >>> of these.
> >>>
> >>> Another thing is that if you are using a desktop shortcut to rapidly
> >>> shutdown windows, stop using it as it prevents your shelliconcache
> >>> from being rewritten properly.
> >>
> >> Not for me it doesn't (and hasn't). I've had a desktop shortcut for
> >> shutdown for years. (as for "rapidly", who knows. LOL).
>
>
>