Are CALs required

[Mark Barnes (Jao)]

Just requiring a bit of help to resolve an impass between 2 IT support
companies.

Company A has a Windows 2003 Server, set up in Workgroup mode. No AD has
been set up. 6 Windows XP machines are accessing this server. Does this
server need CALs?

If yes, would there be a physical consequence of not having licences? (in IT
terms, not "yes MS will sue you")

Support company 1 says "No CALS are needed, and there will be no problems"
Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer intermittent
disconnections until you get them".

Any help?

 

[Danny Sanders]

I thought you did not need CALs for a workgroup but looking at this article
I'm not so sure now.
See:
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/sam/lic_cal.mspx

> If yes, would there be a physical consequence of not having licences? (in
> IT
> terms, not "yes MS will sue you")

Nothing IT related.

hth
DDS

"Mark Barnes (Jao)" wrote in
message news:43839E91-C335-4F76-BF4C-0DBFDB2A159E@microsoft.com...
> Just requiring a bit of help to resolve an impass between 2 IT support
> companies.
>
> Company A has a Windows 2003 Server, set up in Workgroup mode. No AD has
> been set up. 6 Windows XP machines are accessing this server. Does this
> server need CALs?
>
> If yes, would there be a physical consequence of not having licences? (in
> IT
> terms, not "yes MS will sue you")
>
> Support company 1 says "No CALS are needed, and there will be no problems"
> Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer intermittent
> disconnections until you get them".
>
> Any help?

 

[geoar75@gmail.com]

Hi,

There are two main ways to access a server, using no third-party
utilities.
Via Remote Desktop Connection (RDC) and via Terminal Services.
RDC supports up to two connections at the same time, while Terminal
Services is limited by the number of CALs. If you have 6 CALs, all 6
clients can connect at the same time.
The main difference, is RDC needs no licence.

Giorgos

--

NetPros community
http://netpros.freeforums.org


On Oct 8, 5:21 pm, Mark Barnes (Jao)
wrote:
> Just requiring a bit of help to resolve an impass between 2 IT support
> companies.
>
> Company A has a Windows 2003 Server, set up in Workgroup mode.  No AD has
> been set up.  6 Windows XP machines are accessing this server.  Does this
> server need CALs?
>
> If yes, would there be a physical consequence of not having licences? (in IT
> terms, not "yes MS will sue you")
>
> Support company 1 says "No CALS are needed, and there will be no problems"
> Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer intermittent
> disconnections until you get them".
>
> Any help?

 

[Danny Sanders]

> Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer intermittent
> disconnections until you get them".


Wow.................... just saw this..................AFAIK this is just an
out and out lie...............Never heard of that and never seen that.


hth
DDS

"Mark Barnes (Jao)" wrote in
message news:43839E91-C335-4F76-BF4C-0DBFDB2A159E@microsoft.com...
> Just requiring a bit of help to resolve an impass between 2 IT support
> companies.
>
> Company A has a Windows 2003 Server, set up in Workgroup mode. No AD has
> been set up. 6 Windows XP machines are accessing this server. Does this
> server need CALs?
>
> If yes, would there be a physical consequence of not having licences? (in
> IT
> terms, not "yes MS will sue you")
>
> Support company 1 says "No CALS are needed, and there will be no problems"
> Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer intermittent
> disconnections until you get them".
>
> Any help?

 

[Mark Barnes (Jao)]

Thanks for the reply. A single directory is shared out on the server, which
is accessed via a mapped drive on the XP clients.

"geoar75@gmail.com" wrote:

> Hi,
>
> There are two main ways to access a server, using no third-party
> utilities.
> Via Remote Desktop Connection (RDC) and via Terminal Services.
> RDC supports up to two connections at the same time, while Terminal
> Services is limited by the number of CALs. If you have 6 CALs, all 6
> clients can connect at the same time.
> The main difference, is RDC needs no licence.
>
> Giorgos
>
> --
>
> NetPros community
> http://netpros.freeforums.org
>
>
> On Oct 8, 5:21 pm, Mark Barnes (Jao)
> wrote:
> > Just requiring a bit of help to resolve an impass between 2 IT support
> > companies.
> >
> > Company A has a Windows 2003 Server, set up in Workgroup mode. No AD has
> > been set up. 6 Windows XP machines are accessing this server. Does this
> > server need CALs?
> >
> > If yes, would there be a physical consequence of not having licences? (in IT
> > terms, not "yes MS will sue you")
> >
> > Support company 1 says "No CALS are needed, and there will be no problems"
> > Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer intermittent
> > disconnections until you get them".
> >
> > Any help?
>
>

 

[Mark Barnes (Jao)]

Which bit the CALS or the disconnections? XP disconnects randomly any
connections above 10, so it sounds believeable.

"Danny Sanders" wrote:

> > Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer intermittent
> > disconnections until you get them".
>
>
> Wow.................... just saw this..................AFAIK this is just an
> out and out lie...............Never heard of that and never seen that.
>
>
> hth
> DDS
>
> "Mark Barnes (Jao)" wrote in
> message news:43839E91-C335-4F76-BF4C-0DBFDB2A159E@microsoft.com...
> > Just requiring a bit of help to resolve an impass between 2 IT support
> > companies.
> >
> > Company A has a Windows 2003 Server, set up in Workgroup mode. No AD has
> > been set up. 6 Windows XP machines are accessing this server. Does this
> > server need CALs?
> >
> > If yes, would there be a physical consequence of not having licences? (in
> > IT
> > terms, not "yes MS will sue you")
> >
> > Support company 1 says "No CALS are needed, and there will be no problems"
> > Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer intermittent
> > disconnections until you get them".
> >
> > Any help?
>
>
>

 

[Danny Sanders]

The disconnects.................Sure XP disconnects after 10 concurrent
connections, it's a workstation OS.

You can actually stop and disable the license logging service and if audited
you will be presumed to be in per seat mode and you will be expected to
deliver CALs for all computers connecting to the server. You can do this and
be totally "legal".
The only thing that "tracks" (I use the term loosely) licenses is the
license logging service and it has been a problem since it was first
introduced in NT 4.0 as an afterthought admin helper (I use the term helper
loosely). I have always stopped and disabled the license logging service on
all the networks I've worked on. With the license logging service stopped
and disabled the "server" has no idea if/how many CALs it "should" server
and it purrs along just nicely. No intermittent disconnects.

hth
DDS

"Mark Barnes (Jao)" wrote in
message news:03065C13-EBDB-4047-930A-D045E6BCBFB6@microsoft.com...
> Which bit the CALS or the disconnections? XP disconnects randomly any
> connections above 10, so it sounds believeable.
>
> "Danny Sanders" wrote:
>
>> > Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer intermittent
>> > disconnections until you get them".
>>
>>
>> Wow.................... just saw this..................AFAIK this is just
>> an
>> out and out lie...............Never heard of that and never seen that.
>>
>>
>> hth
>> DDS
>>
>> "Mark Barnes (Jao)" wrote in
>> message news:43839E91-C335-4F76-BF4C-0DBFDB2A159E@microsoft.com...
>> > Just requiring a bit of help to resolve an impass between 2 IT support
>> > companies.
>> >
>> > Company A has a Windows 2003 Server, set up in Workgroup mode. No AD
>> > has
>> > been set up. 6 Windows XP machines are accessing this server. Does
>> > this
>> > server need CALs?
>> >
>> > If yes, would there be a physical consequence of not having licences?
>> > (in
>> > IT
>> > terms, not "yes MS will sue you")
>> >
>> > Support company 1 says "No CALS are needed, and there will be no
>> > problems"
>> > Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer intermittent
>> > disconnections until you get them".
>> >
>> > Any help?
>>
>>
>>

 

[Mark Barnes (Jao)]

So in theory, if when I get access to the server, if I spot event ID 202
(insufficient licences) in event viewer, then Support Company 2 is probably
right (until the licence logging service is stopped anyway).

"Danny Sanders" wrote:

> The disconnects.................Sure XP disconnects after 10 concurrent
> connections, it's a workstation OS.
>
> You can actually stop and disable the license logging service and if audited
> you will be presumed to be in per seat mode and you will be expected to
> deliver CALs for all computers connecting to the server. You can do this and
> be totally "legal".
> The only thing that "tracks" (I use the term loosely) licenses is the
> license logging service and it has been a problem since it was first
> introduced in NT 4.0 as an afterthought admin helper (I use the term helper
> loosely). I have always stopped and disabled the license logging service on
> all the networks I've worked on. With the license logging service stopped
> and disabled the "server" has no idea if/how many CALs it "should" server
> and it purrs along just nicely. No intermittent disconnects.
>
> hth
> DDS
>
> "Mark Barnes (Jao)" wrote in
> message news:03065C13-EBDB-4047-930A-D045E6BCBFB6@microsoft.com...
> > Which bit the CALS or the disconnections? XP disconnects randomly any
> > connections above 10, so it sounds believeable.
> >
> > "Danny Sanders" wrote:
> >
> >> > Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer intermittent
> >> > disconnections until you get them".
> >>
> >>
> >> Wow.................... just saw this..................AFAIK this is just
> >> an
> >> out and out lie...............Never heard of that and never seen that.
> >>
> >>
> >> hth
> >> DDS
> >>
> >> "Mark Barnes (Jao)" wrote in
> >> message news:43839E91-C335-4F76-BF4C-0DBFDB2A159E@microsoft.com...
> >> > Just requiring a bit of help to resolve an impass between 2 IT support
> >> > companies.
> >> >
> >> > Company A has a Windows 2003 Server, set up in Workgroup mode. No AD
> >> > has
> >> > been set up. 6 Windows XP machines are accessing this server. Does
> >> > this
> >> > server need CALs?
> >> >
> >> > If yes, would there be a physical consequence of not having licences?
> >> > (in
> >> > IT
> >> > terms, not "yes MS will sue you")
> >> >
> >> > Support company 1 says "No CALS are needed, and there will be no
> >> > problems"
> >> > Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer intermittent
> >> > disconnections until you get them".
> >> >
> >> > Any help?
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>

 

[Danny Sanders]

Even with the license logging service running you won't get disconnects. The
license logging service has problems tracking licenses and throws up the
errors in event viewer. You can keep it running and ignore those events or
as many people have recommended, stop and disable it. If you keep it running
you will have a mess of events related to the license logging service but no
disconnects.

hth
DDS

"Mark Barnes (Jao)" wrote in
message news:091C825F-1D9F-4419-B76D-B05A54F783F1@microsoft.com...
> So in theory, if when I get access to the server, if I spot event ID 202
> (insufficient licences) in event viewer, then Support Company 2 is
> probably
> right (until the licence logging service is stopped anyway).
>
> "Danny Sanders" wrote:
>
>> The disconnects.................Sure XP disconnects after 10 concurrent
>> connections, it's a workstation OS.
>>
>> You can actually stop and disable the license logging service and if
>> audited
>> you will be presumed to be in per seat mode and you will be expected to
>> deliver CALs for all computers connecting to the server. You can do this
>> and
>> be totally "legal".
>> The only thing that "tracks" (I use the term loosely) licenses is the
>> license logging service and it has been a problem since it was first
>> introduced in NT 4.0 as an afterthought admin helper (I use the term
>> helper
>> loosely). I have always stopped and disabled the license logging service
>> on
>> all the networks I've worked on. With the license logging service stopped
>> and disabled the "server" has no idea if/how many CALs it "should" server
>> and it purrs along just nicely. No intermittent disconnects.
>>
>> hth
>> DDS
>>
>> "Mark Barnes (Jao)" wrote in
>> message news:03065C13-EBDB-4047-930A-D045E6BCBFB6@microsoft.com...
>> > Which bit the CALS or the disconnections? XP disconnects randomly any
>> > connections above 10, so it sounds believeable.
>> >
>> > "Danny Sanders" wrote:
>> >
>> >> > Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer
>> >> > intermittent
>> >> > disconnections until you get them".
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Wow.................... just saw this..................AFAIK this is
>> >> just
>> >> an
>> >> out and out lie...............Never heard of that and never seen that.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> hth
>> >> DDS
>> >>
>> >> "Mark Barnes (Jao)" wrote in
>> >> message news:43839E91-C335-4F76-BF4C-0DBFDB2A159E@microsoft.com...
>> >> > Just requiring a bit of help to resolve an impass between 2 IT
>> >> > support
>> >> > companies.
>> >> >
>> >> > Company A has a Windows 2003 Server, set up in Workgroup mode. No
>> >> > AD
>> >> > has
>> >> > been set up. 6 Windows XP machines are accessing this server. Does
>> >> > this
>> >> > server need CALs?
>> >> >
>> >> > If yes, would there be a physical consequence of not having
>> >> > licences?
>> >> > (in
>> >> > IT
>> >> > terms, not "yes MS will sue you")
>> >> >
>> >> > Support company 1 says "No CALS are needed, and there will be no
>> >> > problems"
>> >> > Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer
>> >> > intermittent
>> >> > disconnections until you get them".
>> >> >
>> >> > Any help?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>

 

[Mark Barnes (Jao)]

Even in Per Server mode?


Ive just tried disabling the license logging on my server here, and it's
warned me that disabling the logging will disable the logging, but licences
will still be enforced.

Is this stretching the truth?

How are licences normally enforced? (by disconnecting machines?)

 

[Danny Sanders]

Per server mode would be enforced if you are set in per server mode and had
license logging service running. If you are in per server mode (license
logging service running) and had 5 licenses, 5 computers can connect and the
6th would not be able to connect.

In per seat mode (with the license logging service running) and have 5
licenses, 5 computers can connect and the 6th, 7th, 8th...etc would be able
to connect and an event gets generated in the event viewer.........no one
gets refused a connection or gets disconnected.

> Is this stretching the truth?

Yes.


> How are licences normally enforced? (by disconnecting machines?)

By not allowing the computer to connect in the first place.

I have never in seen a case where a computer gets disconnected from a server
because of licenses.........not allowed to connect
...........yes...........disconnected after allowing the connection
.................no....................

hth
DD


"Mark Barnes (Jao)" wrote in
message news:43A8625C-ACBD-48DB-8638-CC63307475D5@microsoft.com...
> Even in Per Server mode?
>
>
> Ive just tried disabling the license logging on my server here, and it's
> warned me that disabling the logging will disable the logging, but
> licences
> will still be enforced.
>
> Is this stretching the truth?
>
> How are licences normally enforced? (by disconnecting machines?)

 

[Mark Barnes (Jao)]

Ok, thanks for all your help so far.

1 final question, have you ever tested the above?, because this weekend I
intend to

I have 50 machines here, and I plan on setting up a test Windows 2003
workgroup server, leaving the licencing type at default, adding no CALS then
disabling logging, then opening a file on the server from each machine.

maybe 1 more question. In per server mode, with logging enabled, how long
will a server hold a session open for (as in a client accesses a file on the
network share, then closes it) before it decides the client is disconnected,
and allows another client to make a connection?

 

[Danny Sanders]

> 1 final question, have you ever tested the above?, because this weekend I
> intend to

Yes

> I have 50 machines here, and I plan on setting up a test Windows 2003
> workgroup server, leaving the licencing type at default, adding no CALS
> then
> disabling logging, then opening a file on the server from each machine.


It will work with no errors in the event viewer about not enough licenses.
Leave license logging turned on ,add your 5 CALs and set up in per seat mode
and it will still work but you will have "not enough licenses" messages in
event viewer, but no connection will be refused or dropped.

> maybe 1 more question. In per server mode, with logging enabled, how long
> will a server hold a session open for (as in a client accesses a file on
> the
> network share, then closes it) before it decides the client is
> disconnected,
> and allows another client to make a connection?

Indefinetly when one person goes to start - logoff and logs off, another
user can gain access.


Truth be told, a server setup in perseat mode with license logging turned
off, and you only have 5 CALs will happily accept as many connections as you
can throw at it. CALs are more of an "on your honor" deal rather than "you
MUST get them or this won't work" deal.


hth
DDS


"Mark Barnes (Jao)" wrote in
message news:0E94FE3A-407F-448D-9636-33554858D97F@microsoft.com...
> Ok, thanks for all your help so far.
>
> 1 final question, have you ever tested the above?, because this weekend I
> intend to

>
> I have 50 machines here, and I plan on setting up a test Windows 2003
> workgroup server, leaving the licencing type at default, adding no CALS
> then
> disabling logging, then opening a file on the server from each machine.
>
> maybe 1 more question. In per server mode, with logging enabled, how long
> will a server hold a session open for (as in a client accesses a file on
> the
> network share, then closes it) before it decides the client is
> disconnected,
> and allows another client to make a connection?

 

[DaveMills]

On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 07:59:01 -0700, Mark Barnes (Jao)
wrote:

>Thanks for the reply. A single directory is shared out on the server, which
>is accessed via a mapped drive on the XP clients.
>

I mapped drive will be a connection all the time.

By default connections will be disconnected after 15 minutes idle time but will
reconnect as soon as Windows Explorer access them.

In Per seat mode nothing happens except the event log stuff
In Per server mode connection will be refused once the license count is
exceeded. Some clients will use more than one connected license, ie. you may
fine the with 10 licenses you can only connect 8 or 9 clients. I never did work
out what but sometime it was a SQL connection + a Windows connect that had used
2 licenses.

I have not tested any of this for a very long time (NT or W2k) so W2003 and
W2008 may operate differently now.



>"geoar75@gmail.com" wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> There are two main ways to access a server, using no third-party
>> utilities.
>> Via Remote Desktop Connection (RDC) and via Terminal Services.
>> RDC supports up to two connections at the same time, while Terminal
>> Services is limited by the number of CALs. If you have 6 CALs, all 6
>> clients can connect at the same time.
>> The main difference, is RDC needs no licence.
>>
>> Giorgos
>>
>> --
>>
>> NetPros community
>> http://netpros.freeforums.org
>>
>>
>> On Oct 8, 5:21 pm, Mark Barnes (Jao)
>> wrote:
>> > Just requiring a bit of help to resolve an impass between 2 IT support
>> > companies.
>> >
>> > Company A has a Windows 2003 Server, set up in Workgroup mode. No AD has
>> > been set up. 6 Windows XP machines are accessing this server. Does this
>> > server need CALs?
>> >
>> > If yes, would there be a physical consequence of not having licences? (in IT
>> > terms, not "yes MS will sue you")
>> >
>> > Support company 1 says "No CALS are needed, and there will be no problems"
>> > Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer intermittent
>> > disconnections until you get them".
>> >
>> > Any help?
>>
>>
--
Dave Mills
There are 10 types of people, those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

[Gregg Hill]

IT company #2 is correct. One point: servers don't require Client Access
Licenses (CALs), the "clients" require the CAL in order to legally access
the server, hence the name. A "client" can be a person, or can be a device,
such as a computer, SmartPhone, etc, capable of accessing data on the server
and/or authenticating to the server, regardless of workgroup or domain.
Printers and the like are NOT "devices" per the license and do not require a
CAL.

A CAL is required for each device or user who connects to the server. In the
scenario mentioned by geoar75@gmail.com, he left out the point of directly
connecting to shared folders. Also, a Remote Desktop Connection in admin
mode is for "administrative purposes" only, not for running applications,
and is limited to THREE connections (he forgot the "console" session). If
you use it as a terminal server in application mode, then you also need a TS
CAL for each user or device accessing the TS.

I have been doing IT for only ten years, and the point about intermittent
disconnects is indeed true, assuming one has not disabled the license
logging service. Now, just **how intermittent** is the question. I saw a lot
of problems on NT4, but VERY random and very few disconnects and other odd
problems with 2000/2003 servers that were over the license limit. In NT4, a
server had to a fair amount over the license count before problems would
show up. I never saw problems with 10 licenses and 11 users/devices, for
example, but with 10 licenses and 25 users, yes. More often, I would see
connections refused rather than disconnected, but there were a few rare
disconnections on a couple of way-over-the-count NT4 servers.

Typically, the "best" setup (at least for me) is to use per-seat mode, so
that if you have or add additional servers, they are covered. Per-seat
breaks down into Per-User or Per-Device, and that choice depends upon how
you use your systems. If you have 30 employees working in three shifts on
ten computers, get 10 Per-Device CALs. If you have 10 employees using ten
computers, plus ten SmartPhones that access Exchange or can VPN to the
server, plus ten laptops that access the server, etc, then use 10 Per-User
CALs. One can also mix the types of CALs. Say you have five managers who
access from 5 devices each, and 30 workers who access from ten computers in
different shifts, then you get a mix of CALs, 5 Per-User for the managers,
and 10 Per-Device for the shift worker computers.

Nothing has driven me closer to the brink of suicide than MS licensing!

Gregg


"Mark Barnes (Jao)" wrote in
message news:43839E91-C335-4F76-BF4C-0DBFDB2A159E@microsoft.com...
> Just requiring a bit of help to resolve an impass between 2 IT support
> companies.
>
> Company A has a Windows 2003 Server, set up in Workgroup mode. No AD has
> been set up. 6 Windows XP machines are accessing this server. Does this
> server need CALs?
>
> If yes, would there be a physical consequence of not having licences? (in
> IT
> terms, not "yes MS will sue you")
>
> Support company 1 says "No CALS are needed, and there will be no problems"
> Support company 2 says "CALS are needed, and you'll suffer intermittent
> disconnections until you get them".
>
> Any help?