FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released

[H. S.]

Big_Al wrote:
>
> IMHO, ZA missed the boat or was just slow.
>

Yup, I agree.


--
---
Please remove underscores, if any, from my email address to obtain the
correct one. Sorry for the trouble but this is to reduce SPAM.

 

[PA Bear [MS MVP]]

> I have been experiencing problems with my internet
> connection all week.

"All week" meaning since you installed KB951748, KB951978, and the Malicious
Software Removal Tool on or shortly after 08 July 2008?

When did you install WinXP SP3? Was AVG running in the background when you
installed SP3? Do you only experience such issues after resuming from
Standby or Hibernation?

You've told us that ZoneAlarm isn't installed. Is another third-party
firewall installed or are you using the Windows Firewall?

Has a Norton or McAfee application ever been installed on the machine?

Lastly, if you uninstall "Security Update for Windows XP (KB951748)" via
Add/Remove Programs & reboot, does the behavior persist?

PS: Please tell me which newsgroup you're using to view and reply to this
thread. I'd prefer that we discontinue the unnecessary crossposting.
--
~PA Bear


Phyllis wrote:
> Microsoft Windows Updates this week were KB951748 (Security Update for
> XP),
> KB951978 (Update for Windows XP), KB890830 (Windows Malicious Software
> Removal Tool). I have been experiencing problems with my internet
> connection all week. Sometimes I can't get it to connect at all, or a
> window will come up and say "there is no internet connection available, do
> I
> want to work offline or retry." If I click retry it will connect right
> up.
> Then at other times it will connect to the cable connection with no
> problem,
> but then my wireless connection will not connect, it doesn't even show a
> network available. After fooling with it (disable, re-enable, repair) it
> will just finally connect up.
>
> I had already upgraded to AVG 8.0 several weeks ago. The update this week
> was just a part of daily updates, but required restart of my computer
> which
> it never did before. It says 8.0.138.
>
>
> "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:e30nuxF5IHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> What other *Windows* updates did you install this week? Exactly what
>> problems are you experiencing since installing the July 2008 updates?
>>
>> Did you upgrade from AVG v7.5 to v8.0, and are you now running v8.1.135?
>> --
>> ~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)
>> MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002
>> AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net
>> DTS-L http://dts-l.net/
>>
>>
>> Phyllis wrote:
>>> Sorry about posting in the wrong place, but I was mainly commenting on
>>> the
>>> fact that there were others with what seemed like the same problem that
>>> did
>>> not have ZA.
>>>
>>> XP SP3, IE 7, and my AVG did an update this week that required restart
>>> of
>>> my
>>> computer which has never happened before, so it is possible they made
>>> some
>>> changes as well. Has anyone complained about that freebie screwing
>>> things
>>> up? Seems like everything I have on my computer has been wanting to
>>> update
>>> today and I'm getting a little gun shy. Thanks
>>>
>>>> No, sorry. It's been a very long week...
>>>>
>>>> Then again, you did post in a thread about ZoneAlarm and KB951748
>>>> instead
>>>> of beginning your own thread.
>>>>
>>>> What's your Windows version (e.g., WinXP SP3) and IE version, Phyllis?
>>>> What other updates did you install this week besides KB951748?
>>>> --
>>>> Phyllis wrote:
>>>>> So this fix works even if you are not running Zone Alarms?
>>>>>
>>>>>> ZA's had the fix for several days now:
>> <snip>

 

[Shenan Stanley]

<snipped>

PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:
> So Windows must be compatible with ZA and any other third-party
> application, not the other way around?

V Green wrote:
> Why not?
>
> ZA WORKED before the update. The update BROKE it.
> So it's ZA's problem?
>
> Get real.

Shenan Stanley wrote:
> Yes.
>
> Stay general and tell me how you can logically and reasonably say
> otherwise... Leave out any specific names.
>
> The original manufacturer of an original product released a
> patch/upgrade for their original product. The original product had
> been modified in this case by a third party product. The original
> manufacturer has no responsibility to test all the possible third
> party add-ons/changes you can perform on their product - because
> they simply would not have the resources or time to do so - nor is
> it probably logistically possible/plausible. Therefore - if a
> change (critical) is made to the original product and the third
> party product no longer functions as the third party vendor said it
> would - it is their responsibility to decide whether or not to make
> it right.
>
> I responded like this in another location already - if you have
> someway to legitimately change that logic around - I would be glad
> to read. This is what I wrote earlier - it's repetative in many
> ways to what I wrote above - but perhaps seeing it described in a
> couple of ways will allow more people to understand the point...
> And if there is another side to it - perhaps be able to explain
> that point of view.
>
> ( begin repost )
>
> No offense meant below - honest question...
>
> You have a (potential) problem with an update for the original
> product you purchased because you have modified the original
> product with the addition of a third party product that has no
> relation with the manufacturer of the original product other than
> the fact they made their product to fit 'on top of' that original
> product - and your complaint is with the original product
> manufacturer?
>
> Wouldn't your complaint be better received if made to those who
> made the third party product you chose to replace the parts of the
> original product when you decided you wanted to modify it?
>
> P.S. - I couldn't care less that the specific complaint is about
> Microsoft, Chevrolet, Whirlpool or whomever - that is why I left
> out names in my actual query completely.
>
> It doesn't matter who made the original product in question - if
> you chose to modify it with some third party product and then some
> recall/update/upgrade comes out for the original product - do you
> honestly believe the manufacturer of the original product should
> find out every modification you *could have made* to their product
> is and make sure their upgrade/update for their product works with
> all of those possibilities? Or would it be more logical to place
> the responsibility of maintaining the third party modification to
> the makers of said modification?
>
> ( end repost )
>
> In the end - I believe one could more easily argue the point that
> it is the end-users responsibility more than anyone's - as they are
> the one who made the conscience choice to change the original
> product for 'supposed' more protection with a third party add-ons
> and then, when the original product is changed in some way (by the
> original manufacturer) and that makes the original product fail
> unless the add-on is removed... well - who made the choice to
> utilize that product?
>
> But that's a completely different point of view than the one I
> originally presented - but one I could see someone taking and being
> able to defend.
>
> Please - present your point of view and back it up - I would
> actually like to hear it because I am finding it difficult to
> fathom it right now. Perhaps you have a generalized way of
> explaining it where I can see your point of view.

V Green wrote:
> Sorry, but no. I don't screw over MY customer base that way.
> If you choose to live life doing that sort of stuff, then
> we must just agree to disagree.
>
> And good luck with customer loyalty...wait a sec, Windows
> is a monopoly. Happy Customers, what are those??? They don't
> have a choice (go ahead and argue that if you wish, you KNOW
> it's true and I won't respond to it) so what do we care about their
> "user experience"?

I am going respond because you decided to literally side-step the question
and just dis-like some specific company instead of making a logical argument
based in reality.

If you do not answer - that is your choice. However - if you don't
respond - my thought is you could not come up with a logical, non-biased
argument *not* based on anything specific and/or you will respond with
another seemingly personal attack.

This is nothing personal - this has nothing to do with you or your business
practices. You have somehow decided to attack me personally and what you
feel is my personal belief system instead of what I presented as the reality
of the situation from almost all situations like this.

If you were to buy a chevrolet vehicle and modify some part with a third
party product and chevrolet did a recall and the recall/replacement part
made your modification either not work or caused you to be unable to do
something else (like close the hood, etc) - whose responsibility is it to
fix it?

If you had a whirlpool dishwasher and you bought a third party utensil
basket that was larger but still fit the door and then they
recalled/replaced the door on the unit for some reason and their replacement
was larger and thus you could no longer close the door and latch it with
your third party utensil basket in it - whose responsibility is it to fix
it?


So please - if you can - present your case in a generalized form. Be
realistic. See the examples I gave above and tell me if I am not correct in
my assumptions on who would be responsible in those cases.

Please - don't take this as some personal attack - it is not. Please do not
make it into a personal attack, as it seems to me you have already somewhat
by assuming my presentation is anything more than the way things usually
work - and how it makes sense to me.

This is supposed to be a discussion on why you believe if someone buys
something, modifies it, gets a replacement/upgrade/fixed part from the
original manufacturer of the original item that makes their third party part
fail/invalid - that the original manufacturer of the original part should
have known/tested for that and/or have been the one to remedy the
situation... And not the way I presented where the third party part
manufacturer and/or the end-user themselves have to take responsibility for
the fact their old part (the way it is at that point) has issues that need
to be resolved to work with the now-fixed original part. I

f you believe the way you have presented - that is fine - but *why* - what
is the actual basis beyond a 'good feeling' - or is that it?

If - however - you do not consider the entirety of the posting (as you seem
to have done previously) - please consider at least the following
question(s).

Please explain - quite simply - why it is the original manufacturer's place
to make sure every third-party change possible (including personal
modifications not published to the public, perhaps) will work with every
modification they deem as critical to their original product - which is the
only thing they are actually responsible for?

Are you saying that if you sell something (whatever you sell) and the person
modifies it before bringing it back and they bring it back to fix something
that would not have occurred if they had not modified it - you will take
responsibility for what they did (what they added/modified) and fix the
problem the third party modification caused for them at no charge?

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

 

[Phyllis]

I am using microsoft.public.security in my Outlook Express to view/reply.

Problem started first part of the week after Windows Updates and AVG update.

Don't remember date of SP3 install, was right after it became available and
I got update notification from Automatic Updates. Usually when I first open
Internet Explorer I get this box that says "no internet connection
available, do you want to work offline or retry." When I click retry it
connects right up. My wireless connection doesn't connect at startup and if
I do manage to get it connected it drops during standby.

I use Windows Firewall, but have recently had Zone Alarms but didn't like
some things about it and uninstalled via Add/Remove programs. I have run a
search and did not find any files associated with Zone Alarms on my
computer. I have also had Norton Internet Security during 2006 and 2007.

I did a system restore yesterday and told Automatic Updates to not show me
KB951748 and KB951978 again. I did install the Malicious Software Tool.
Problem remains. I am wondering if maybe my internet provider may have been
messing with it trying to resolve this problem themselves. I believe it was
on Zone Alarms forum that I read where internet providers were having to
make corrections to their servers too. Don't know if that is correct or
not. I have read so much today, I can hardly remember my name at this
point. I have it all connected right now and has been working fine for the
last couple of hours. Don't know what is going on.


"PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:%23bqaawG5IHA.1196@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> I have been experiencing problems with my internet
>> connection all week.
>
> "All week" meaning since you installed KB951748, KB951978, and the
> Malicious Software Removal Tool on or shortly after 08 July 2008?
>
> When did you install WinXP SP3? Was AVG running in the background when
> you installed SP3? Do you only experience such issues after resuming from
> Standby or Hibernation?
>
> You've told us that ZoneAlarm isn't installed. Is another third-party
> firewall installed or are you using the Windows Firewall?
>
> Has a Norton or McAfee application ever been installed on the machine?
>
> Lastly, if you uninstall "Security Update for Windows XP (KB951748)" via
> Add/Remove Programs & reboot, does the behavior persist?
>
> PS: Please tell me which newsgroup you're using to view and reply to this
> thread. I'd prefer that we discontinue the unnecessary crossposting.
> --
> ~PA Bear
>
>
> Phyllis wrote:
>> Microsoft Windows Updates this week were KB951748 (Security Update for
>> XP),
>> KB951978 (Update for Windows XP), KB890830 (Windows Malicious Software
>> Removal Tool). I have been experiencing problems with my internet
>> connection all week. Sometimes I can't get it to connect at all, or a
>> window will come up and say "there is no internet connection available,
>> do I
>> want to work offline or retry." If I click retry it will connect right
>> up.
>> Then at other times it will connect to the cable connection with no
>> problem,
>> but then my wireless connection will not connect, it doesn't even show a
>> network available. After fooling with it (disable, re-enable, repair) it
>> will just finally connect up.
>>
>> I had already upgraded to AVG 8.0 several weeks ago. The update this
>> week
>> was just a part of daily updates, but required restart of my computer
>> which
>> it never did before. It says 8.0.138.
>>
>>
>> "PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:e30nuxF5IHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>> What other *Windows* updates did you install this week? Exactly what
>>> problems are you experiencing since installing the July 2008 updates?
>>>
>>> Did you upgrade from AVG v7.5 to v8.0, and are you now running v8.1.135?
>>> --
>>> ~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)
>>> MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002
>>> AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net
>>> DTS-L http://dts-l.net/
>>>
>>>
>>> Phyllis wrote:
>>>> Sorry about posting in the wrong place, but I was mainly commenting on
>>>> the
>>>> fact that there were others with what seemed like the same problem that
>>>> did
>>>> not have ZA.
>>>>
>>>> XP SP3, IE 7, and my AVG did an update this week that required restart
>>>> of
>>>> my
>>>> computer which has never happened before, so it is possible they made
>>>> some
>>>> changes as well. Has anyone complained about that freebie screwing
>>>> things
>>>> up? Seems like everything I have on my computer has been wanting to
>>>> update
>>>> today and I'm getting a little gun shy. Thanks
>>>>
>>>>> No, sorry. It's been a very long week...
>>>>>
>>>>> Then again, you did post in a thread about ZoneAlarm and KB951748
>>>>> instead
>>>>> of beginning your own thread.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's your Windows version (e.g., WinXP SP3) and IE version, Phyllis?
>>>>> What other updates did you install this week besides KB951748?
>>>>> --
>>>>> Phyllis wrote:
>>>>>> So this fix works even if you are not running Zone Alarms?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ZA's had the fix for several days now:
>>> <snip>
>

 

[V Green]

"Shenan Stanley" <newshelper@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:O$YIpxG5IHA.3768@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> <snipped>
>
> PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:
> > So Windows must be compatible with ZA and any other third-party
> > application, not the other way around?
>
> V Green wrote:
> > Why not?
> >
> > ZA WORKED before the update. The update BROKE it.
> > So it's ZA's problem?
> >
> > Get real.
>
> Shenan Stanley wrote:
> > Yes.
> >
> > Stay general and tell me how you can logically and reasonably say
> > otherwise... Leave out any specific names.
> >
> > The original manufacturer of an original product released a
> > patch/upgrade for their original product. The original product had
> > been modified in this case by a third party product. The original
> > manufacturer has no responsibility to test all the possible third
> > party add-ons/changes you can perform on their product - because
> > they simply would not have the resources or time to do so - nor is
> > it probably logistically possible/plausible. Therefore - if a
> > change (critical) is made to the original product and the third
> > party product no longer functions as the third party vendor said it
> > would - it is their responsibility to decide whether or not to make
> > it right.
> >
> > I responded like this in another location already - if you have
> > someway to legitimately change that logic around - I would be glad
> > to read. This is what I wrote earlier - it's repetative in many
> > ways to what I wrote above - but perhaps seeing it described in a
> > couple of ways will allow more people to understand the point...
> > And if there is another side to it - perhaps be able to explain
> > that point of view.
> >
> > ( begin repost )
> >
> > No offense meant below - honest question...
> >
> > You have a (potential) problem with an update for the original
> > product you purchased because you have modified the original
> > product with the addition of a third party product that has no
> > relation with the manufacturer of the original product other than
> > the fact they made their product to fit 'on top of' that original
> > product - and your complaint is with the original product
> > manufacturer?
> >
> > Wouldn't your complaint be better received if made to those who
> > made the third party product you chose to replace the parts of the
> > original product when you decided you wanted to modify it?
> >
> > P.S. - I couldn't care less that the specific complaint is about
> > Microsoft, Chevrolet, Whirlpool or whomever - that is why I left
> > out names in my actual query completely.
> >
> > It doesn't matter who made the original product in question - if
> > you chose to modify it with some third party product and then some
> > recall/update/upgrade comes out for the original product - do you
> > honestly believe the manufacturer of the original product should
> > find out every modification you *could have made* to their product
> > is and make sure their upgrade/update for their product works with
> > all of those possibilities? Or would it be more logical to place
> > the responsibility of maintaining the third party modification to
> > the makers of said modification?
> >
> > ( end repost )
> >
> > In the end - I believe one could more easily argue the point that
> > it is the end-users responsibility more than anyone's - as they are
> > the one who made the conscience choice to change the original
> > product for 'supposed' more protection with a third party add-ons
> > and then, when the original product is changed in some way (by the
> > original manufacturer) and that makes the original product fail
> > unless the add-on is removed... well - who made the choice to
> > utilize that product?
> >
> > But that's a completely different point of view than the one I
> > originally presented - but one I could see someone taking and being
> > able to defend.
> >
> > Please - present your point of view and back it up - I would
> > actually like to hear it because I am finding it difficult to
> > fathom it right now. Perhaps you have a generalized way of
> > explaining it where I can see your point of view.
>
> V Green wrote:
> > Sorry, but no. I don't screw over MY customer base that way.
> > If you choose to live life doing that sort of stuff, then
> > we must just agree to disagree.
> >
> > And good luck with customer loyalty...wait a sec, Windows
> > is a monopoly. Happy Customers, what are those??? They don't
> > have a choice (go ahead and argue that if you wish, you KNOW
> > it's true and I won't respond to it) so what do we care about their
> > "user experience"?
>
> I am going respond because you decided to literally side-step the question
> and just dis-like some specific company instead of making a logical argument
> based in reality.
>
> If you do not answer - that is your choice. However - if you don't
> respond - my thought is you could not come up with a logical, non-biased
> argument *not* based on anything specific and/or you will respond with
> another seemingly personal attack.
>
> This is nothing personal - this has nothing to do with you or your business
> practices. You have somehow decided to attack me personally and what you
> feel is my personal belief system instead of what I presented as the reality
> of the situation from almost all situations like this.
>
> If you were to buy a chevrolet vehicle and modify some part with a third
> party product and chevrolet did a recall and the recall/replacement part
> made your modification either not work or caused you to be unable to do
> something else (like close the hood, etc) - whose responsibility is it to
> fix it?
>
> If you had a whirlpool dishwasher and you bought a third party utensil
> basket that was larger but still fit the door and then they
> recalled/replaced the door on the unit for some reason and their replacement
> was larger and thus you could no longer close the door and latch it with
> your third party utensil basket in it - whose responsibility is it to fix
> it?
>
>
> So please - if you can - present your case in a generalized form. Be
> realistic. See the examples I gave above and tell me if I am not correct in
> my assumptions on who would be responsible in those cases.
>
> Please - don't take this as some personal attack - it is not. Please do not
> make it into a personal attack, as it seems to me you have already somewhat
> by assuming my presentation is anything more than the way things usually
> work - and how it makes sense to me.
>
> This is supposed to be a discussion on why you believe if someone buys
> something, modifies it, gets a replacement/upgrade/fixed part from the
> original manufacturer of the original item that makes their third party part
> fail/invalid - that the original manufacturer of the original part should
> have known/tested for that and/or have been the one to remedy the
> situation... And not the way I presented where the third party part
> manufacturer and/or the end-user themselves have to take responsibility for
> the fact their old part (the way it is at that point) has issues that need
> to be resolved to work with the now-fixed original part. I
>
> f you believe the way you have presented - that is fine - but *why* - what
> is the actual basis beyond a 'good feeling' - or is that it?
>
> If - however - you do not consider the entirety of the posting (as you seem
> to have done previously) - please consider at least the following
> question(s).
>
> Please explain - quite simply - why it is the original manufacturer's place
> to make sure every third-party change possible (including personal
> modifications not published to the public, perhaps) will work with every
> modification they deem as critical to their original product - which is the
> only thing they are actually responsible for?
>
> Are you saying that if you sell something (whatever you sell) and the person
> modifies it before bringing it back and they bring it back to fix something
> that would not have occurred if they had not modified it - you will take
> responsibility for what they did (what they added/modified) and fix the
> problem the third party modification caused for them at no charge?
>
> --
> Shenan Stanley
> MS-MVP
> --
> How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>
>

Shenan:

After reading links to the info regarding
ZA's "slow on the uptake" response to an issue that
they were supposedly notified of (I did not have this
info until recently) I realize that I may have been in
error to bash MS specifically on this issue. My bad
for that.

If ZA didn't code around an impending update that they
knew about, that's a whole different thing.

> f you believe the way you have presented - that is fine - but *why* - what
> is the actual basis beyond a 'good feeling' - or is that it?

That's it. That's all. 50 years of good feelings. Works
for me. You should try it. You might like it.

 

[Anthony Buckland]

"Freddy" <Freddy@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:09D81099-DD86-490F-90C3-EC6D6EC8AA9A@microsoft.com...
> Unfortunately, I hve new problems now. Windows XP is hanging on
> "Scanningprocess.exe" for over 2 hours. I can't do anything but shutoff
> my
> machine and reboot in Safe mode. Any other solutions?

I've noticed a slower virus scan with the new ZA. I'm heading over
to the Zone Alarm User Forum, and suggest you do the same.
It isn't connected to the OS AFAIK. Before we take this offtopic
discussion out of here, though, I'd suggest scheduling your scan
for something like 01:00, as I do. Unless of course that's when
you do your work.

 

[Shenan Stanley]

V Green wrote:
> That's it. That's all. 50 years of good feelings. Works
> for me. You should try it. You might like it.

I have more good feelings than most and have plenty of people (because of
those good feelings) who would come to me before anyone else for many
things - but that doesn't address the question at all really - you didn't
answer the main question...

---
Are you saying that if you sell something (whatever you sell) and the person
modifies it before bringing it back and they bring it back to fix something
that would not have occurred if they had not modified it - you will take
responsibility for what they did (what they added/modified) and fix the
problem the third party modification caused for them at no charge?
---

(And assume this is not family, not friend, a pure customer that you have no
interest in making more than a loyal customer - and think about their other
choices, etc.)

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

 

[V Green]

"Shenan Stanley" <newshelper@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:O2ONXqI5IHA.2064@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> V Green wrote:
> > That's it. That's all. 50 years of good feelings. Works
> > for me. You should try it. You might like it.
>
> I have more good feelings than most and have plenty of people (because of
> those good feelings) who would come to me before anyone else for many
> things - but that doesn't address the question at all really - you didn't
> answer the main question...
>
> ---
> Are you saying that if you sell something (whatever you sell) and the person
> modifies it before bringing it back and they bring it back to fix something
> that would not have occurred if they had not modified it - you will take
> responsibility for what they did (what they added/modified) and fix the
> problem the third party modification caused for them at no charge?

Yes.

Your analogy doesn't apply to the kind of business
I am in, but I would do that. Take responsibility, no, but
that's not necessary to fix the problem and make the customer
happy.

Chide them about it, yes, probably.

And I would only do it once for that individual.

And as part of the "repair" process, I would inform them that
if they did it again (same customer, same "modification")
I would probably charge them.

Ya gotta have limits.

> ---
>
> (And assume this is not family, not friend, a pure customer that you have no
> interest in making more than a loyal customer - and think about their other
> choices, etc.)
>
> --
> Shenan Stanley
> MS-MVP
> --
> How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>
>

 

[Kayman]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:59:50 -0700, V Green wrote:

> "Shenan Stanley" <newshelper@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:O2ONXqI5IHA.2064@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> V Green wrote:
>>> That's it. That's all. 50 years of good feelings. Works
>>> for me. You should try it. You might like it.
>>
>> I have more good feelings than most and have plenty of people (because of
>> those good feelings) who would come to me before anyone else for many
>> things - but that doesn't address the question at all really - you didn't
>> answer the main question...
>>
>> ---
>> Are you saying that if you sell something (whatever you sell) and the person
>> modifies it before bringing it back and they bring it back to fix something
>> that would not have occurred if they had not modified it - you will take
>> responsibility for what they did (what they added/modified) and fix the
>> problem the third party modification caused for them at no charge?
>
> Yes.
>
> Your analogy doesn't apply to the kind of business
> I am in, but I would do that. Take responsibility, no, but
> that's not necessary to fix the problem and make the customer
> happy.
>
> Chide them about it, yes, probably.
>
> And I would only do it once for that individual.
>
> And as part of the "repair" process, I would inform them that
> if they did it again (same customer, same "modification")
> I would probably charge them.
>
> Ya gotta have limits.
>
You're such a Pisser, V Green!

 

[Shenan Stanley]

<snipped>
Conversation in entirety:
http://groups.google.com/group/micr...8/b3486be8412ee2af?lnk=st&q=#b3486be8412ee2af



Shenan Stanley wrote:
> If you believe the way you have presented - that is fine - but
> *why* - what is the actual basis beyond a 'good feeling' - or is
> that it?

V Green wrote:
> That's it. That's all. 50 years of good feelings. Works
> for me. You should try it. You might like it.

Shenan Stanley wrote:
> I have more good feelings than most and have plenty of people
> (because of those good feelings) who would come to me before anyone
> else for many things - but that doesn't address the question at all
> really - you didn't answer the main question...
>
> ---
> Are you saying that if you sell something (whatever you sell) and
> the person modifies it before bringing it back and they bring it
> back to fix something that would not have occurred if they had not
> modified it - you will take responsibility for what they did (what
> they added/modified) and fix the problem the third party
> modification caused for them at no charge? ---
>
> (And assume this is not family, not friend, a pure customer that
> you have no interest in making more than a loyal customer - and
> think about their other choices, etc.)

V Green wrote:
> Yes.
>
> Your analogy doesn't apply to the kind of business
> I am in, but I would do that. Take responsibility, no, but
> that's not necessary to fix the problem and make the customer
> happy.
>
> Chide them about it, yes, probably.
>
> And I would only do it once for that individual.
>
> And as part of the "repair" process, I would inform them that
> if they did it again (same customer, same "modification")
> I would probably charge them.
>
> Ya gotta have limits.

I appreciate the answer.

If you fix a problem that the customer obviously could not fix (if they
could, they would not have come to you) and the cause is obviously something
they did with some modification - you have taken responsibility from them,
taken on the problem, accepted what caused it was not you, etc.

You can say it's not your "fault" - but by actually putting effort into it
and fixing it - you have taken on the _responsibility_ to 'make it right'.
By not charging for said service - are saying that, "although the _fault_ is
not mine - I am doing this for you" --> which is taking on the
responsibility. (Not the *fault* mind you - but the responsibility has been
transferred.)

You don't have to take the 'blame' to take the 'responsibility'. It's like
bailing someone out of prison in a way. You take responsibility by handing
over your money, but not the blame for the crime.

*shrug*

Thanks again for answering.

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

 

[Leonard Grey]

I am so glad I didn't get involved with this thread!

---
Leonard Grey
Errare humanum est

Shenan Stanley wrote:
> V Green wrote:
>> That's it. That's all. 50 years of good feelings. Works
>> for me. You should try it. You might like it.
>
> I have more good feelings than most and have plenty of people (because of
> those good feelings) who would come to me before anyone else for many
> things - but that doesn't address the question at all really - you didn't
> answer the main question...
>
> ---
> Are you saying that if you sell something (whatever you sell) and the person
> modifies it before bringing it back and they bring it back to fix something
> that would not have occurred if they had not modified it - you will take
> responsibility for what they did (what they added/modified) and fix the
> problem the third party modification caused for them at no charge?
> ---
>
> (And assume this is not family, not friend, a pure customer that you have no
> interest in making more than a loyal customer - and think about their other
> choices, etc.)
>

 

[Lars-Erik Østerud]

Charles Lee wrote:

> problems are now fixed with security update & ZA in ZoneAlarms latest
> update... all releases covered, from basic to the full suite

For some reason the older ZoneAlarm like the classic 4.5.594 is not
affected. Why is that? The 4.5 is smaller and less resource hog too.
--
Lars-Erik - http://www.osterud.name - ICQ 7297605
Test my Firefox tweaks: http://firefox.osterud.name

 

[Paul (Bornival)]

Hi, everyone,

This thread has seen a very "active" discusssion about the mutual
responsibilities of MS and ZA for the "loss of Internet access" disaster
linked to the issue of KB951748.

For sure, the DNS issue was known by the main software manufacturerers much
before July 8th, and ZA could have been more proactive.

However, the argument that MS can change its software "ex abrubto" and put
the culprit on 3d party software in case of problems (because, for ZA, the 3d
party has modified a core component of its system) needs to be re-examined.
Indeed,

- the main reason why people adopted ZA firewall (or other 3d party
firewalls) is because neither Win95/98/ME or WinXP (before SP2) had any
protection in this context (more about that on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Firewall). The firewall introduced with
WinXP SP2 was only directed against attacks from outside but did not block
anything from inside (this was considered as unecessary, and claimed as such
on this forum, ... untill, eventually, Vista introduced it, which
demonstrates its usefulness...)

- as a result, mots of us had to use 3d party firewalls to prortect our
computers (I did so after seeing my unprotected WinXP computers so easily
attacked ...).

I submit that MS should recognize that, because it introduced a decent
firewall only recently, it has to respect those users who installed a 3d
party firewal ... and have remained faithful to it.

Although, stricto sensu, MS is not obliged to take into consideration all 3d
party sofware when thay make chnages that may affect the users of such
software, they could have been more prudent in this case.

In a broader context, MS built its success (vs. Apple) by making an OS on
which 3d parties could buid their own applications. Ignoring this now (and
stating that they have "nothing to do with 3d party software") may well cause
important problems, and the demise of MS in the future. In ancient Rome,
people said "Jupiter blinds those who he will kill" and "The Tarpeian rock is
close to the Capitol". In this particular case, I'm afraid that MS was
blind... even if it was technically and legally right, and has forgotten
that falling from the Capitol hill is easier than climbing it.

 

[Rick]

Paul (Bornival) wrote:
> Hi, everyone,
>
> This thread has seen a very "active" discusssion about the mutual
> responsibilities of MS and ZA for the "loss of Internet access" disaster
> linked to the issue of KB951748.
>
> For sure, the DNS issue was known by the main software manufacturerers much
> before July 8th, and ZA could have been more proactive.
>
> However, the argument that MS can change its software "ex abrubto" and put
> the culprit on 3d party software in case of problems (because, for ZA, the 3d
> party has modified a core component of its system) needs to be re-examined.
> Indeed,
>
> - the main reason why people adopted ZA firewall (or other 3d party
> firewalls) is because neither Win95/98/ME or WinXP (before SP2) had any
> protection in this context (more about that on
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Firewall). The firewall introduced with
> WinXP SP2 was only directed against attacks from outside but did not block
> anything from inside (this was considered as unecessary, and claimed as such
> on this forum, ... untill, eventually, Vista introduced it, which
> demonstrates its usefulness...)
>
> - as a result, mots of us had to use 3d party firewalls to prortect our
> computers (I did so after seeing my unprotected WinXP computers so easily
> attacked ...).
>
> I submit that MS should recognize that, because it introduced a decent
> firewall only recently, it has to respect those users who installed a 3d
> party firewal ... and have remained faithful to it.
>
> Although, stricto sensu, MS is not obliged to take into consideration all 3d
> party sofware when thay make chnages that may affect the users of such
> software, they could have been more prudent in this case.
>
> In a broader context, MS built its success (vs. Apple) by making an OS on
> which 3d parties could buid their own applications. Ignoring this now (and
> stating that they have "nothing to do with 3d party software") may well cause
> important problems, and the demise of MS in the future. In ancient Rome,
> people said "Jupiter blinds those who he will kill" and "The Tarpeian rock is
> close to the Capitol". In this particular case, I'm afraid that MS was
> blind... even if it was technically and legally right, and has forgotten
> that falling from the Capitol hill is easier than climbing it.
>

Actually the DNS hole was newly discovered to say that software
developers knew about this "much before July 8" is not accurate. What
is of much more concern is ISP's have that same hole. It has been
suggested that Open DNS offers protection but I would be much more
concerned about the ISP hole that the one on the pc.
--

Rick
Fargo, ND
N 46°53'251"
W 096°48'279"

Remember the USS Liberty
http://www.ussliberty.org/

 

[Shenan Stanley]

Paul (Bornival) wrote:
> This thread has seen a very "active" discusssion about the mutual
> responsibilities of MS and ZA for the "loss of Internet access"
> disaster linked to the issue of KB951748.
>
> For sure, the DNS issue was known by the main software
> manufacturerers much before July 8th, and ZA could have been more
> proactive.
>
> However, the argument that MS can change its software "ex abrubto"
> and put the culprit on 3d party software in case of problems
> (because, for ZA, the 3d party has modified a core component of its
> system) needs to be re-examined. Indeed,
>
> - the main reason why people adopted ZA firewall (or other 3d party
> firewalls) is because neither Win95/98/ME or WinXP (before SP2) had
> any protection in this context (more about that on
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Firewall). The firewall
> introduced with WinXP SP2 was only directed against attacks from
> outside but did not block anything from inside (this was
> considered as unecessary, and claimed as such on this forum, ...
> untill, eventually, Vista introduced it, which demonstrates its
> usefulness...)

Just because Vista has something does not 'demonstrate its usefulness' - it
merely demonstrates good marketing... If the people want it - throw it in
there... Even if most of those people do not understand what it really
does/doesn't do. (AERO is far from 'useful' - and it is in Vista.)

> - as a result, mots of us had to use 3d party firewalls to prortect
> our computers (I did so after seeing my unprotected WinXP computers
> so easily attacked ...)

Some people do/did not (even without any SP, SP1, SP1a) run a third party
firewall. Many of those ran/run fine.

SP2 was released in 2004. It is 2008 and SP3 has since bveen released.
Four years is a long time not to reflect on your security options if someone
was concerned at one time enough to get a free firewall solution in the
past - in my opinion. (Some people still run some pretty old versions of
whatever free software they may have chosen - some may even run software
from manufacturers that do not exist any longer...)

> I submit that MS should recognize that, because it introduced a
> decent firewall only recently, it has to respect those users who
> installed a 3d party firewal ... and have remained faithful to it.

Respect it - okay - agreed.

Research every one of them to see if they will cause problems - even those
that have since disappeared into the ether and are still ran by people
because they never bothered to get anything else, etc?

Zone Alarm is popular - but it is not (by far) the only option around (or
that was around in many cases) and not everyone is running it as their
third-party solution - which means there will be MANY different ones they
would have to 'test' - and which versions (of each one) do you test? What
are the limitation on how far back you test? After all - people are
reporting in this very conversation that some older versions of Zone Alarm
itself do not exhibit the issues of the version right before the patch to
remedy this problem - which tells me that Zone Alarm didn't have this issue,
did have this issue, doesn't have this issue again (if you just pretend the
patch could have been released some time ago.)

> Although, stricto sensu, MS is not obliged to take into
> consideration all 3d party sofware when thay make chnages that may
> affect the users of such software, they could have been more
> prudent in this case.

How? In what way? See my above query...

What limitations do you put on testing other people's software to make sure
when you patch yours it doesn't cause some particular version of some
particular software to break something overall?

> In a broader context, MS built its success (vs. Apple) by making an
> OS on which 3d parties could buid their own applications. Ignoring
> this now (and stating that they have "nothing to do with 3d party
> software") may well cause important problems, and the demise of MS
> in the future. In ancient Rome, people said "Jupiter blinds those
> who he will kill" and "The Tarpeian rock is close to the Capitol".
> In this particular case, I'm afraid that MS was blind... even if
> it was technically and legally right, and has forgotten that
> falling from the Capitol hill is easier than climbing it.

Interesting. I did enjoy reading that. Maybe Microsoft will cause its own
downfall - and maybe that is not a bad thing.

However - I am still unsure what you are expecting someone in a position
such as this one to have done differently.

There are obviously still people running much older versions of the software
that is mentioned in the subject of this posting and those people are not
having issues (according to their responses in this very conversation and
elsewhere.) There are people running other third party software that does
similar/the same thing as the software mentioned in the subject of this
posting and they are not having trouble. I have seen sporadic postings
lately (one to three) of people running brand-new similar software from
another (large) manufacturer supposedly having similar issues.

What would have been the 'thing to do' with all these variables in place, in
your opinion?

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

 

[Kayman]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:03:01 -0700, Paul (Bornival) wrote:

> Hi, everyone,
>
> This thread has seen a very "active" discusssion about the mutual
> responsibilities of MS and ZA for the "loss of Internet access" disaster
> linked to the issue of KB951748.
>
> For sure, the DNS issue was known by the main software manufacturerers much
> before July 8th, and ZA could have been more proactive.

Quite right! And this really should be the end of the story!

> However, the argument that MS can change its software "ex abrubto" and put
> the culprit on 3d party software in case of problems (because, for ZA, the 3d
> party has modified a core component of its system) needs to be re-examined.
> Indeed,

ZA had sufficient time to address this issue.

> - the main reason why people adopted ZA firewall (or other 3d party
> firewalls) is because neither Win95/98/ME or WinXP (before SP2) had any
> protection in this context (more about that on
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Firewall). The firewall introduced with
> WinXP SP2 was only directed against attacks from outside but did not block
> anything from inside (this was considered as unecessary, and claimed as such
> on this forum, ... untill, eventually, Vista introduced it, which
> demonstrates its usefulness...)

It was essential to utilize a 3rd party firewall application prior
WindowsNT (which incidentally applies also to Registry Cleaners). After the
introduction of NT the in-build firewall made 3rd party applications
superfluous, which obviously wasn't well received by the makers of these
software.

> - as a result, mots of us had to use 3d party firewalls to prortect our
> computers (I did so after seeing my unprotected WinXP computers so easily
> attacked ...).

A 3rd party apps. wouldn't have saved you Especially ZA!

> I submit that MS should recognize that, because it introduced a decent
> firewall only recently, it has to respect those users who installed a 3d
> party firewal ... and have remained faithful to it.

The decent firewall was introduced by MSFT with the introduction of NT. It
is, compared to the existing 3rd party apps., a "more honest" and superior
and product. The reason for most users chosing 3rd party applications is
the relentless hype and scare mongering tactics created by the makers of
these software. In terms of security 'outbound control' is utter nonsense!

> Although, stricto sensu, MS is not obliged to take into consideration all 3d
> party sofware when thay make chnages that may affect the users of such
> software, they could have been more prudent in this case.

Again, ZA had sufficient time to act accordingly. Others did, didn't they?

> In a broader context,

<snipped irrelevant analogy>

Educational reading re outbound control:
PFW Criticism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_firewall#Criticisms

Why your firewall sucks.
http://tooleaky.zensoft.com/
"But I quickly realized the truth: The added protection provided by
outbound filtering is entirely illusory."

At Least This Snake Oil Is Free.
http://msinfluentials.com/blogs/jesper/archive/2007/07/19/at-least-this-snake-oil-is-free.aspx

Deconstructing Common Security Myths.
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/technetmag/issues/2006/05/SecurityMyths/default.aspx
Scroll down to:
"Myth: Host-Based Firewalls Must Filter Outbound Traffic to be Safe."

Exploring the windows Firewall.
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/technetmag/issues/2007/06/VistaFirewall/default.aspx
"Outbound protection is security theater¡Xit¡¦s a gimmick that only gives the
impression of improving your security without doing anything that actually
does improve your security."

Read in its entirety:
Managing the Windows Vista Firewall
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc510323.aspx

Apropos hype:
Go to...
http://www.sunbelt-software.com/Home-Home-Office/Sunbelt-Personal-Firewall/

....and follow all the hype created by Sunbelt's *Marketing Department*.

Still use the free Windows XP firewall?
Unfortunately, this gives you a false sense of security. It only protects
incoming traffic. But outgoing traffic, with your credit card info, social
security number, bank accounts, passwords and other confidential
information is not protected. The WinXP firewall will let it all go out.
But... SPF will block that data if you buy the FULL version! You absolutely
need a better, commercial-grade firewall.

Then read in...
Windows Personal Firewall Analysis

http://www.matousec.com/projects/wi...ysis/leak-tests-results.php#firewalls-ratings

....a more realistic view which obviously was drafted by the head of
Sunbelt's *Operations department*.

Sunbelt Software - the vendor of Sunbelt Kerio Personal Firewall

2007-08-07: Here is the response we have received from this vendor:

Sunbelt Software is committed to providing the strongest possible security
products to its customers, and we will be working to correct demonstrable
issues in the Sunbelt Personal Firewall. Users can expect these and other
continuing enhancements for the Sunbelt Personal Firewall in the near
future.

However, we have some reservations about personal firewall "leak testing"
in general. While we appreciate and support the unique value of independent
security testing, we are admittedly skeptical as to just how meaningful
these leak tests really are, especially as they reflect real-world
environments.

The key assumption of "leak testing" -- namely, that it is somehow useful
to measure the outbound protection provided by personal firewalls in cases
where malware has already executed on the test box -- strikes us as a
questionable basis on which to build a security assessment. Today's malware
is so malicious and cleverly designed that it is often safest to regard PCs
as so thoroughly compromised that nothing on the box can be trusted once
the malware executes. In short, "leak testing" starts after the game is
already lost, as the malware has already gotten past the inbound firewall
protection.

Moreover, "leak testing" is predicated on the further assumption that
personal firewalls should warn users about outbound connections even when
the involved code components are not demonstrably malicious or suspicious
(as is the case with the simulator programs used for "leak testing"). In
fact, this kind of program design risks pop-up fatigue in users,
effectively lowering the overall security of the system -- the reason
developers are increasingly shunning this design for security applications.

Finally, leak testing typically relies on simulator programs, the use of
which is widely discredited among respected anti-malware researchers -- and
for good reason. Simulators simply cannot approximate the actual behavior
of real malware in real world conditions. Furthermore, when simulators are
used for anti-malware testing, the testing process is almost unavoidably
tailored to fit the limitations of simulator instead of the complexity of
real world conditions. What gets lost is a sense for how the tested
products actually perform against live, kicking malware that exhibits
behavior too complex to be captured in narrowly designed simulators.

This is pretty eye-opening as well:

Firewall LeakTesting.
Excerpts:
Leo Laporte: "So the leaktest is kind of pointless."
Steve Gibson: "Well,yes,...
Leo: "So are you saying that there's no point in doing a leaktest anymore?"
Steve: "Well, it's why I have not taken the trouble to update mine, because
you..."
Leo: "You can't test enough".
Steve: "Well, yeah.
Leo: "Right. Very interesting stuff. I guess that - my sense is, if you
can't test for leaks, a software-based firewall is kind of essentially
worthless."

Read and/or listen to the entire conversation here:
http://www.grc.com/sn/SN-105.htm

 

[Root Kit]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:03:01 -0700, Paul (Bornival)
<PaulBornival@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>The firewall introduced with WinXP SP2 was only directed against attacks
>from outside but did not block anything from inside (this was considered
>as unecessary,

Not quite. Learn to distinguish between useful and practically doable.

>and claimed as such on this forum, ... untill, eventually,
>Vista introduced it, which demonstrates its usefulness...)

The outbound control of Vista is very different from the "application
outbound control" introduced by 3rd party FW's.

Vistas outbound control makes sense because it builds on the general
security enhancements of Vista. Outbound control on an XP platform as
a security measure against malware is still utter nonsense.

>- as a result, mots of us had to use 3d party firewalls to prortect our
>computers

You didn't have to. But you were tricked into believing so by FW
vendors and "security" hyper's.

> (I did so after seeing my unprotected WinXP computers so easily
>attacked ...).

This is nonsense. An "unprotected" XP (SP2+) is not easily attacked.
Pre SP2, all you needed to do was turn the FW on, or even better -
shut down unnecessary network services, which MS unfortunately has a
bad habit of having running by default.

>I submit that MS should recognize that, because it introduced a decent
>firewall only recently, it has to respect those users who installed a 3d
>party firewal ... and have remained faithful to it.

You think MS should support security hype? You think MS should support
something they know is nonsense because they are well aware of the
shortcomings of its own OS?

 

[H.S.]

Root Kit wrote:

> security enhancements of Vista. Outbound control on an XP platform as
> a security measure against malware is still utter nonsense.
>

I am not sure I understand the above statement. I am curious what it
really means. Could you please explain and give an example or two.

Thanks.

 

[Nunya Bidnits]

Leonard Grey wrote:
> I am so glad I didn't get involved with this thread!
>
> ---
> Leonard Grey
> Errare humanum est
>
> Shenan Stanley wrote:
>> V Green wrote:
>>> That's it. That's all. 50 years of good feelings. Works
>>> for me. You should try it. You might like it.
>>
>> I have more good feelings than most and have plenty of people
>> (because of those good feelings) who would come to me before anyone
>> else for many things - but that doesn't address the question at all
>> really - you didn't answer the main question...
>>
>> ---
>> Are you saying that if you sell something (whatever you sell) and
>> the person modifies it before bringing it back and they bring it
>> back to fix something that would not have occurred if they had not
>> modified it - you will take responsibility for what they did (what
>> they added/modified) and fix the problem the third party
>> modification caused for them at no charge? ---
>>
>> (And assume this is not family, not friend, a pure customer that you
>> have no interest in making more than a loyal customer - and think
>> about their other choices, etc.)

As a rank and file home user with above average skills (but not an expert),
and as a person with marketing and PR experience, here's my impression:

MS and ZA both screwed up.

First, ZA is widely used. Second, MS should have, or could have known that
the July update would therefore have a broad negative impact. Third, *if* ZA
had enough advance warning to issue a corrective fix before the update, and
just knowingly and negligently chose to do so for no particular good reason,
double shame on them. But that does not really seem likely. However its
indisputable that the first two are true.

Both screwed up because:

MS did not make any effort to make the ZA problem known. The issue was not
discussed on the web page for the update, nor was there any other alert
associated with the update. Yet there is no way they were not aware of the
problem before pushing the update, unless they were negligent in their
preparations. Either way, bad on MS. They left average home users, the most
affected single group, completely utterly in the dark. Those users do not
usually know where to look, such as in these newsgroups, to find out about
such problems. And any more, since half of them use the scum-ridden Google
Groups, they could not access them anyway, MS having trashed their WWW
access.

ZA did a very very poor job of responding to the problem. It was a pain in
the neck for me to find out that it was a ZA problem at all. I knew enough
to uninstall the update, something many home users would not necessarily
think to do, or know how to do. Going back to a restore point, as many of
them did, is an excessively destructive solution.

When I tried to find the updates through the click point in the ZA software
"check for updates", repeatedly, N**none** were found. When I went to the
web pages suggested in these NGs for the fix, at the time I checked, the
links to the updates were not there. Several on these groups became
frustrated with me for asking repeatedly, but somehow they did not manage to
keep these links posted as they apparently kept making changes to the page.
Finally on hard refresh I found the links. Bad on ZA.

From now on I will not allow MS to install any updates automatically and
will check for problems for a few days before accepting them.

And due to this and other past avoidable ZA problems, plus information that
indicates their firewall is only marginally effective at best, I will move
on to a better firewall.

MartyB in KC

 

[Leonard Grey]

Is there perhaps something I can do to kill this worthless thread? Would
you like to see pictures from my last vacation? It was real fun until we
got lost...but that's a l-o-n-g story. It all started one day when the
sky was clear and the sun was bright...

---
Leonard Grey
Errare humanum est

Nunya Bidnits wrote:
> Leonard Grey wrote:
>> I am so glad I didn't get involved with this thread!
>>
>> ---
>> Leonard Grey
>> Errare humanum est
>>
>> Shenan Stanley wrote:
>>> V Green wrote:
>>>> That's it. That's all. 50 years of good feelings. Works
>>>> for me. You should try it. You might like it.
>>> I have more good feelings than most and have plenty of people
>>> (because of those good feelings) who would come to me before anyone
>>> else for many things - but that doesn't address the question at all
>>> really - you didn't answer the main question...
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Are you saying that if you sell something (whatever you sell) and
>>> the person modifies it before bringing it back and they bring it
>>> back to fix something that would not have occurred if they had not
>>> modified it - you will take responsibility for what they did (what
>>> they added/modified) and fix the problem the third party
>>> modification caused for them at no charge? ---
>>>
>>> (And assume this is not family, not friend, a pure customer that you
>>> have no interest in making more than a loyal customer - and think
>>> about their other choices, etc.)
>
> As a rank and file home user with above average skills (but not an expert),
> and as a person with marketing and PR experience, here's my impression:
>
> MS and ZA both screwed up.
>
> First, ZA is widely used. Second, MS should have, or could have known that
> the July update would therefore have a broad negative impact. Third, *if* ZA
> had enough advance warning to issue a corrective fix before the update, and
> just knowingly and negligently chose to do so for no particular good reason,
> double shame on them. But that does not really seem likely. However its
> indisputable that the first two are true.
>
> Both screwed up because:
>
> MS did not make any effort to make the ZA problem known. The issue was not
> discussed on the web page for the update, nor was there any other alert
> associated with the update. Yet there is no way they were not aware of the
> problem before pushing the update, unless they were negligent in their
> preparations. Either way, bad on MS. They left average home users, the most
> affected single group, completely utterly in the dark. Those users do not
> usually know where to look, such as in these newsgroups, to find out about
> such problems. And any more, since half of them use the scum-ridden Google
> Groups, they could not access them anyway, MS having trashed their WWW
> access.
>
> ZA did a very very poor job of responding to the problem. It was a pain in
> the neck for me to find out that it was a ZA problem at all. I knew enough
> to uninstall the update, something many home users would not necessarily
> think to do, or know how to do. Going back to a restore point, as many of
> them did, is an excessively destructive solution.
>
> When I tried to find the updates through the click point in the ZA software
> "check for updates", repeatedly, N**none** were found. When I went to the
> web pages suggested in these NGs for the fix, at the time I checked, the
> links to the updates were not there. Several on these groups became
> frustrated with me for asking repeatedly, but somehow they did not manage to
> keep these links posted as they apparently kept making changes to the page.
> Finally on hard refresh I found the links. Bad on ZA.
>
> From now on I will not allow MS to install any updates automatically and
> will check for problems for a few days before accepting them.
>
> And due to this and other past avoidable ZA problems, plus information that
> indicates their firewall is only marginally effective at best, I will move
> on to a better firewall.
>
> MartyB in KC
>