Life after Windows 98SE

rpgs rock dvds · Apr 21, 2008

On 20 Apr, 14:31, "someone watching" <nos...@bogusaddress.com> wrote:
> I'm with you Robert. I bought an IBM T41 laptop last year specifically
> because I wanted a good laptop which would handle, of all things,
> WIN98SE! Why? Because I like the way it handles all the -OLD- DOS
> software I still use, some of which runs very poorly in XP and is
> irreplaceable in other OS's.
>
> Hoping I can SOMEHOW keep 98SE going until the fate of all men comes my
> way!
>
> BTW: have you ever tried 98 on the FREE MS Virtual PC software? I've not
> but would really like to ... just don't have time to do it now.
> ___

Hi, I've not tried Virtual PC yet, I would really like to stick to the
real hardware version for '98!!

)

John Dulak · Apr 21, 2008

Bill in Co. wrote:
> FWIW, I used Laplink PC Mover, and it worked fairly well (although it took
> me a couple of attempts to get it right). You would still have to
> reinstall some apps (or un and re install them), but it sure saved me a LOT
> of time, overall. The nice thing is it pretty much migrates everything -
> including settings.
>
> But, assuming you did something like that, and got it all over, what would
> you do with your old PC? (I'm just curious, as I haven't figured out what
> to do yet (with my old one), and any input is useful at this point

Bill:

You could always load "Freesco" on the old PC and turn it into a router.

http://www.freesco.org/index.php

John

--
\\\||///
------------------o000----(o)(o)----000o----------------
----------------------------()--------------------------
'' Madness takes its toll - Please have exact change. ''

John Dulak - Gnomeway Services - http://tinyurl.com/2qs6o6

rpgs rock dvds · Apr 21, 2008

On 20 Apr, 14:31, "someone watching" <nos...@bogusaddress.com> wrote:
> I'm with you Robert. I bought an IBM T41 laptop last year specifically
> because I wanted a good laptop which would handle, of all things,
> WIN98SE! Why? Because I like the way it handles all the -OLD- DOS
> software I still use, some of which runs very poorly in XP and is
> irreplaceable in other OS's.
>
> Hoping I can SOMEHOW keep 98SE going until the fate of all men comes my
> way!
>
> BTW: have you ever tried 98 on the FREE MS Virtual PC software? I've not
> but would really like to ... just don't have time to do it now.
> ___

You've just jogged my memory as to why I didn't properly look into
Virtual PC - I *think* the latest version 2007 (I think) only works if
you have XP Pro - I only have XP Home.

pixturesk@gmail.com · Apr 21, 2008

On Apr 21, 3:13 pm, rpgs rock dvds <rpgsrockd...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> On 20 Apr, 14:31, "someone watching" <nos...@bogusaddress.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm with you Robert. I bought an IBM T41 laptop last year specifically
> > because I wanted a good laptop which would handle, of all things,
> > WIN98SE! Why? Because I like the way it handles all the -OLD- DOS
> > software I still use, some of which runs very poorly in XP and is
> > irreplaceable in other OS's.
>
> > Hoping I can SOMEHOW keep 98SE going until the fate of all men comes my
> > way!
>
> > BTW: have you ever tried 98 on the FREE MS Virtual PC software? I've not
> > but would really like to ... just don't have time to do it now.
> > ___
>
> You've just jogged my memory as to why I didn't properly look into
> Virtual PC - I *think* the latest version 2007 (I think) only works if
> you have XP Pro - I only have XP Home.

I am still using Win98SE very successfully on a P3 600, 256 megs, ATI
Radeon 7000 32megs, ultra lite cable internet, full updates, patches,
hotfixes until Feb/08, Vista theme, wallpaper, icons. Along with Avast
Free, Super AntiSpyware Free, Spyware Blaster, Sygate Personal
Firewall, CCleaner, HiJack This, RegSeeker, MRU Blaster, Firefox,
Kensington Web Racer as my mouse, as a non-techie I am enjoying the
exciting visual appearance of Vista along with the familiarity,
reliability of Win98SE with no interest in changing.

Gary S. Terhune · Apr 21, 2008

Can't you find the earlier version? If not, email me.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
www.grystmill.com

"rpgs rock dvds" <rpgsrockdvds@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8de1baa6-6635-496d-a058-7fc52ead4768@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On 20 Apr, 14:31, "someone watching" <nos...@bogusaddress.com> wrote:
> I'm with you Robert. I bought an IBM T41 laptop last year specifically
> because I wanted a good laptop which would handle, of all things,
> WIN98SE! Why? Because I like the way it handles all the -OLD- DOS
> software I still use, some of which runs very poorly in XP and is
> irreplaceable in other OS's.
>
> Hoping I can SOMEHOW keep 98SE going until the fate of all men comes my
> way!
>
> BTW: have you ever tried 98 on the FREE MS Virtual PC software? I've not
> but would really like to ... just don't have time to do it now.
> ___

You've just jogged my memory as to why I didn't properly look into
Virtual PC - I *think* the latest version 2007 (I think) only works if
you have XP Pro - I only have XP Home.

PCR · Apr 21, 2008

Bill in Co. wrote:

....snip
| Actually, it "seems" this was a "blessing" in disguise, as I just
| tried "upgrading" my Win98 Dell's power supply to a quieter one, and,
| due to Dell's proprietary pin layouts, now have a dead MB.
| Ironically, I bought one of those "quiet power supply" replacements
| (even with some special Dell connectors) in the hopes of quieting
| that PC down. It is VERY quiet now, as in .... completely dead.

You KILLED your Win98! Ohhhh! It's the XP-irradiation responsible! It
demented you and cajoled you & made you plug in a poison, purple power
supply to match the color of your irradiated toes! I KNEW it would
happen! Ohhhhhh!

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
Should things get worse after this,
PCR
pcrrcp@netzero.net

Bill in Co. · Apr 21, 2008

PCR wrote:
> Bill in Co. wrote:
>
> ...snip
>> Actually, it "seems" this was a "blessing" in disguise, as I just
>> tried "upgrading" my Win98 Dell's power supply to a quieter one, and,
>> due to Dell's proprietary pin layouts, now have a dead MB.
>> Ironically, I bought one of those "quiet power supply" replacements
>> (even with some special Dell connectors) in the hopes of quieting
>> that PC down. It is VERY quiet now, as in .... completely dead.
>
> You KILLED your Win98! Ohhhh! It's the XP-irradiation responsible! It
> demented you and cajoled you & made you plug in a poison, purple power
> supply to match the color of your irradiated toes! I KNEW it would
> happen! Ohhhhhh!

Well, I'm not done with it yet! I found and ordered an exact replacement
MB from eBay, so wish me luck!!

But I am a bit pissed - this old Dell and its damn proprietary connector
wiring, Bah Humbug!.

PCR · Apr 21, 2008

Bill in Co. wrote:
| PCR wrote:
|> Bill in Co. wrote:
|>
|> ...snip
|>> Actually, it "seems" this was a "blessing" in disguise, as I just
|>> tried "upgrading" my Win98 Dell's power supply to a quieter one,
|>> and, due to Dell's proprietary pin layouts, now have a dead MB.
|>> Ironically, I bought one of those "quiet power supply" replacements
|>> (even with some special Dell connectors) in the hopes of quieting
|>> that PC down. It is VERY quiet now, as in .... completely dead.
|>
|> You KILLED your Win98! Ohhhh! It's the XP-irradiation responsible! It
|> demented you and cajoled you & made you plug in a poison, purple
|> power supply to match the color of your irradiated toes! I KNEW it
|> would happen! Ohhhhhh!
|
| Well, I'm not done with it yet! I found and ordered an exact
| replacement MB from eBay, so wish me luck!!

Good luck-- absolutely! Get that Win98 back!

| But I am a bit pissed - this old Dell and its damn proprietary
| connector wiring, Bah Humbug!.

In truth, that was fairly brave of you to try replacing a power supply.
I hope never to have to do it!

By the way, in that last thread in which we were speaking (Inbox
contents simply vanished), I tried 3 times to post a response to your
latest-- but it would post! It wasn't much of anything, though-- we were
both just about done & beginning to repeat.

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
Should things get worse after this,
PCR
pcrrcp@netzero.net

Bill in Co. · Apr 21, 2008

PCR wrote:
> Bill in Co. wrote:
>> PCR wrote:
>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>
>>> ...snip
>>>> Actually, it "seems" this was a "blessing" in disguise, as I just
>>>> tried "upgrading" my Win98 Dell's power supply to a quieter one,
>>>> and, due to Dell's proprietary pin layouts, now have a dead MB.
>>>> Ironically, I bought one of those "quiet power supply" replacements
>>>> (even with some special Dell connectors) in the hopes of quieting
>>>> that PC down. It is VERY quiet now, as in .... completely dead.
>>>
>>> You KILLED your Win98! Ohhhh! It's the XP-irradiation responsible! It
>>> demented you and cajoled you & made you plug in a poison, purple
>>> power supply to match the color of your irradiated toes! I KNEW it
>>> would happen! Ohhhhhh!
>>
>> Well, I'm not done with it yet! I found and ordered an exact
>> replacement MB from eBay, so wish me luck!!
>
> Good luck-- absolutely! Get that Win98 back!
>
>> But I am a bit pissed - this old Dell and its damn proprietary
>> connector wiring, Bah Humbug!.
>
> In truth, that was fairly brave of you to try replacing a power supply.
> I hope never to have to do it!

I did it to quiet that PC down (it is noticeably noiser than the new one).
Now it's .... VERY VERY quiet!

Actually, I just tested the power supply with a voltmeter (finally found the
Dell wiring diagram), and found it's still ok. So - the MB is hosed.
But one is on its way.

> By the way, in that last thread in which we were speaking (Inbox
> contents simply vanished), I tried 3 times to post a response to your
> latest-- but it would post! It wasn't much of anything, though-- we were
> both just about done & beginning to repeat.

Why did it vanish?
BTW, I never heard back from you on why you didn't like the convenience of
the Tax programs instead of a spreadsheet on your computer (not on the
web!). See, it fills out (and can print) the forms for you, and you can
even efile if you want. And it's all on your computer after you install
the program.

PCR · Apr 21, 2008

Uhuh. That part was a success. But earplugs would have been better!

| Actually, I just tested the power supply with a voltmeter (finally
| found the Dell wiring diagram), and found it's still ok. So - the
| MB is hosed.

I guess I must agree. If the old one tests well & is plugged as it was
before, it should work as before, I think. Either the MB is gone or some
smaller component on it that gets power first is gone. But I'm afraid I
know little or nothing about this.

(1) Do all the peripherals such as the hard drives require the MB to
work to get any sound out of them?

(2) Is there any evidence of burning anywhere?

(3) Was there any noise after the replacement power supply was plugged
in just before things went dead-- like the sound of an electric chair or
something?

| But one is on its way.

Very good.

|> By the way, in that last thread in which we were speaking (Inbox
|> contents simply vanished), I tried 3 times to post a response to your
|> latest-- but it would post! It wasn't much of anything, though-- we
|> were both just about done & beginning to repeat.
|
| Why did it vanish?

I don't know whether my 3 posts got through & vanished or just never got
through. They are in my Sent Items folder, but I never saw them in the
thread. It wasn't the problem of reaching the size limit of a thread
segment I never got that message. I thought it might be an early sign
of XP-poisoning on your part. However, I think MEB or someone once
reported he couldn't post to me in a certain thread-- so it couldn't be
that!

| BTW, I never heard back from you on why you didn't like the
| convenience of the Tax programs instead of a spreadsheet on your
| computer (not on the web!). See, it fills out (and can print) the
| forms for you, and you can even efile if you want. And it's all on
| your computer after you install the program.

That's the thread I'm speaking of! I couldn't post my answer to that--
but it was pretty much the same as I posted earlier, anyhow.

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
Should things get worse after this,
PCR
pcrrcp@netzero.net

Bill in Co. · Apr 22, 2008

PCR wrote:
> Bill in Co. wrote:
>> PCR wrote:
>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ...snip
>>>>>> Actually, it "seems" this was a "blessing" in disguise, as I just
>>>>>> tried "upgrading" my Win98 Dell's power supply to a quieter one,
>>>>>> and, due to Dell's proprietary pin layouts, now have a dead MB.
>>>>>> Ironically, I bought one of those "quiet power supply"
>>>>>> replacements (even with some special Dell connectors) in the
>>>>>> hopes of quieting that PC down. It is VERY quiet now, as in
>>>>>> .... completely dead.
>>>>>
>>>>> You KILLED your Win98! Ohhhh! It's the XP-irradiation responsible!
>>>>> It demented you and cajoled you & made you plug in a poison, purple
>>>>> power supply to match the color of your irradiated toes! I KNEW it
>>>>> would happen! Ohhhhhh!
>>>>
>>>> Well, I'm not done with it yet! I found and ordered an exact
>>>> replacement MB from eBay, so wish me luck!!
>>>
>>> Good luck-- absolutely! Get that Win98 back!
>>>
>>>> But I am a bit pissed - this old Dell and its damn proprietary
>>>> connector wiring, Bah Humbug!.
>>>
>>> In truth, that was fairly brave of you to try replacing a power
>>> supply. I hope never to have to do it!
>>
>> I did it to quiet that PC down (it is noticeably noiser than the new
>> one). Now it's .... VERY VERY quiet!

>
> Uhuh. That part was a success. But earplugs would have been better!
>
>> Actually, I just tested the power supply with a voltmeter (finally
>> found the Dell wiring diagram), and found it's still ok. So - the
>> MB is hosed.
>
> I guess I must agree. If the old one tests well & is plugged as it was
> before, it should work as before, I think. Either the MB is gone or some
> smaller component on it that gets power first is gone.

Most of those components (and ICs) are soldered in, and I bet several were
blown, due to the miswired power supply (putting the wrong voltages on the
wrong pins).
So it's not practical replacing the individual components. These old
motherboards aren't all that expensive anyways.

> But I'm afraid I know little or nothing about this.
>
> (1) Do all the peripherals such as the hard drives require the MB to
> work to get any sound out of them?

The problem was that after the MB is fried it can prevent the power supply
from working, because the power supply gets a turn-on signal from the MB
when you push the power switch ON. (the on switch is not directly wired to
the power supply).
So if that signal isn't seen and recognized anymore, you get no power from
the power supply, because it's still off, but waiting for that signal.

> (2) Is there any evidence of burning anywhere?

Nope.

> (3) Was there any noise after the replacement power supply was plugged
> in just before things went dead-- like the sound of an electric chair or
> something?

Nope. It was quiet. All was - and still IS - Quiet, on the Western
Front.

>> But one is on its way.
>
> Very good.

I hope so.
More below...

>>> By the way, in that last thread in which we were speaking (Inbox
>>> contents simply vanished), I tried 3 times to post a response to your
>>> latest-- but it would post! It wasn't much of anything, though-- we
>>> were both just about done & beginning to repeat.
>>
>> Why did it vanish?
>
> I don't know whether my 3 posts got through & vanished or just never got
> through. They are in my Sent Items folder, but I never saw them in the
> thread. It wasn't the problem of reaching the size limit of a thread
> segment I never got that message. I thought it might be an early sign
> of XP-poisoning on your part. However, I think MEB or someone once
> reported he couldn't post to me in a certain thread-- so it couldn't be
> that!
>
>> BTW, I never heard back from you on why you didn't like the
>> convenience of the Tax programs instead of a spreadsheet on your
>> computer (not on the web!). See, it fills out (and can print) the
>> forms for you, and you can even efile if you want. And it's all on
>> your computer after you install the program.
>
> That's the thread I'm speaking of! I couldn't post my answer to that--
> but it was pretty much the same as I posted earlier, anyhow.

Well, I thought you didn't answer it because you had thought the tax
programs were online, but they're not (well, some are, but I never use
those). You can do it ALL on your own computer (you get a CD to install
the program, and it does all the work for you.

PCR · Apr 23, 2008

|>
|> Uhuh. That part was a success. But earplugs would have been better!
|>
|>> Actually, I just tested the power supply with a voltmeter (finally
|>> found the Dell wiring diagram), and found it's still ok. So - the
|>> MB is hosed.
|>
|> I guess I must agree. If the old one tests well & is plugged as it
|> was before, it should work as before, I think. Either the MB is gone
|> or some smaller component on it that gets power first is gone.
|
| Most of those components (and ICs) are soldered in, and I bet several
| were blown, due to the miswired power supply (putting the wrong
| voltages on the wrong pins).
| So it's not practical replacing the individual components. These
| old motherboards aren't all that expensive anyways.

I see. Yea, that gets worse to consider multiple components may be
wrecked, & I see there is no sign of singeing anywhere. And I personally
would suspect I could be doing more damage than existed in the first
place, if soldering is involved! In fact, I wouldn't want to do a whole
MB, either. That sounds as tough or worse than a power supply, even!
Sheesh-- but keep at it! You have no choice! Get that Win98 working!

|> But I'm afraid I know little or nothing about this.
|>
|> (1) Do all the peripherals such as the hard drives require the MB to
|> work to get any sound out of them?
|
| The problem was that after the MB is fried it can prevent the power
| supply from working, because the power supply gets a turn-on signal
| from the MB when you push the power switch ON. (the on switch is not
| directly wired to the power supply).
| So if that signal isn't seen and recognized anymore, you get no power
| from the power supply, because it's still off, but waiting for that
| signal.

Damn. So, just going by that...

(a) The motherboard could be dead.
(b) The original power supply could be dead.

I know you tested the power supply with a voltmeter & found it to be
good. I wonder...

Can it be the MB is also actually still good, & that the surge was
passed along to the hard drive(s)? Can it be the hard drive that is
dead? I can't seem to find it, but didn't someone in this thread post a
way to check that... maybe he said to plug in just the hard drive &
touch something to the chassis? Wait, it was philo, & he said...

.......Quote philo............
I assume it's an ATX you are asking about.
If it's an ATX supply just touch the green wire to the chassis.

I advise keeping one harddrive connected to it since it's a 'switching'
type
supply and may require
some load to run.

If it does not even turn on or power a HD it's dead of course...
but even if it powers the drive...I'd still check the other voltages as
it
could still be defective of course.

BTW: If the PSU smells burned or if there's a capacitor rattling around
inside...
you need not go any further <G>
.......EOQ.......................

I'm not sure my interpretation is correct. It would be nice if something
like that should spin the hard drive. Then, you could know it wasn't
dead.

|> (2) Is there any evidence of burning anywhere?
|
| Nope.

OK. Too bad.

|> (3) Was there any noise after the replacement power supply was
|> plugged in just before things went dead-- like the sound of an
|> electric chair or something?
|
| Nope. It was quiet. All was - and still IS - Quiet, on the
| Western Front.

Hmm. It seems strange that nothing at all would happen-- not even dying
words (which always are true) or a last gasp!

|>> But one is on its way.
|>
|> Very good.
|
| I hope so.
| More below...
|
|>>> By the way, in that last thread in which we were speaking (Inbox
|>>> contents simply vanished), I tried 3 times to post a response to
|>>> your latest-- but it would post! It wasn't much of anything,
|>>> though-- we were both just about done & beginning to repeat.
|>>
|>> Why did it vanish?
|>
|> I don't know whether my 3 posts got through & vanished or just never
|> got through. They are in my Sent Items folder, but I never saw them
|> in the thread. It wasn't the problem of reaching the size limit of a
|> thread segment I never got that message. I thought it might be an
|> early sign of XP-poisoning on your part. However, I think MEB or
|> someone once reported he couldn't post to me in a certain thread--
|> so it couldn't be that!
|>
|>> BTW, I never heard back from you on why you didn't like the
|>> convenience of the Tax programs instead of a spreadsheet on your
|>> computer (not on the web!). See, it fills out (and can print) the
|>> forms for you, and you can even efile if you want. And it's all on
|>> your computer after you install the program.
|>
|> That's the thread I'm speaking of! I couldn't post my answer to
|> that-- but it was pretty much the same as I posted earlier, anyhow.
|
| Well, I thought you didn't answer it because you had thought the tax
| programs were online, but they're not (well, some are, but I never use
| those). You can do it ALL on your own computer (you get a CD to
| install the program, and it does all the work for you.

I think (but have never tried it) I could do that now at an IRS site (at
least the federal site)-- but I choose not to do it. I did what I could
with MSWorks Spreadsheet-- & I'm waiting patiently for my economic
stimulus check now! I believe I get the full $600.00!

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
Should things get worse after this,
PCR
pcrrcp@netzero.net

Bill in Co. · Apr 23, 2008

PCR wrote:
> Bill in Co. wrote:
>> PCR wrote:
>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...snip
>>>>>>>> Actually, it "seems" this was a "blessing" in disguise, as I
>>>>>>>> just tried "upgrading" my Win98 Dell's power supply to a
>>>>>>>> quieter one, and, due to Dell's proprietary pin layouts, now
>>>>>>>> have a dead MB. Ironically, I bought one of those "quiet power
>>>>>>>> supply" replacements (even with some special Dell connectors)
>>>>>>>> in the hopes of quieting that PC down. It is VERY quiet now,
>>>>>>>> as in .... completely dead.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You KILLED your Win98! Ohhhh! It's the XP-irradiation
>>>>>>> responsible! It demented you and cajoled you & made you plug in
>>>>>>> a poison, purple power supply to match the color of your
>>>>>>> irradiated toes! I KNEW it would happen! Ohhhhhh!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I'm not done with it yet! I found and ordered an exact
>>>>>> replacement MB from eBay, so wish me luck!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck-- absolutely! Get that Win98 back!
>>>>>
>>>>>> But I am a bit pissed - this old Dell and its damn proprietary
>>>>>> connector wiring, Bah Humbug!.
>>>>>
>>>>> In truth, that was fairly brave of you to try replacing a power
>>>>> supply. I hope never to have to do it!
>>>>
>>>> I did it to quiet that PC down (it is noticeably noiser than the new
>>>> one). Now it's .... VERY VERY quiet!

>>>
>>> Uhuh. That part was a success. But earplugs would have been better!
>>>
>>>> Actually, I just tested the power supply with a voltmeter (finally
>>>> found the Dell wiring diagram), and found it's still ok. So - the
>>>> MB is hosed.
>>>
>>> I guess I must agree. If the old one tests well & is plugged as it
>>> was before, it should work as before, I think. Either the MB is gone
>>> or some smaller component on it that gets power first is gone.
>>
>> Most of those components (and ICs) are soldered in, and I bet several
>> were blown, due to the miswired power supply (putting the wrong
>> voltages on the wrong pins).
>> So it's not practical replacing the individual components. These
>> old motherboards aren't all that expensive anyways.
>
> I see. Yea, that gets worse to consider multiple components may be
> wrecked, & I see there is no sign of singeing anywhere. And I personally
> would suspect I could be doing more damage than existed in the first
> place, if soldering is involved! In fact, I wouldn't want to do a whole
> MB, either. That sounds as tough or worse than a power supply, even!
> Sheesh-- but keep at it! You have no choice! Get that Win98 working!
>
>>> But I'm afraid I know little or nothing about this.
>>>
>>> (1) Do all the peripherals such as the hard drives require the MB to
>>> work to get any sound out of them?
>>
>> The problem was that after the MB is fried it can prevent the power
>> supply from working, because the power supply gets a turn-on signal
>> from the MB when you push the power switch ON. (the on switch is not
>> directly wired to the power supply).
>> So if that signal isn't seen and recognized anymore, you get no power
>> from the power supply, because it's still off, but waiting for that
>> signal.
>
> Damn. So, just going by that...
>
> (a) The motherboard could be dead.
> (b) The original power supply could be dead.
>
> I know you tested the power supply with a voltmeter & found it to be
> good. I wonder...
>
> Can it be the MB is also actually still good, & that the surge was
> passed along to the hard drive(s)?

No, cause it didn't even POST. Just ... nothing (although I did hear a
very faint click when I turned it on)

> Can it be the hard drive that is
> dead? I can't seem to find it, but didn't someone in this thread post a
> way to check that... maybe he said to plug in just the hard drive &
> touch something to the chassis? Wait, it was philo, & he said...
>
> ......Quote philo............
> I assume it's an ATX you are asking about.
> If it's an ATX supply just touch the green wire to the chassis.
>
> I advise keeping one harddrive connected to it since it's a 'switching'
> type supply and may require some load to run.
>
> If it does not even turn on or power a HD it's dead of course...
> but even if it powers the drive...I'd still check the other voltages as
> it could still be defective of course.

I checked the voltages and the power supply (at least) seems ok. So at
least something is left.

> BTW: If the PSU smells burned or if there's a capacitor rattling around
> inside...
> you need not go any further <G>
> ......EOQ.......................
>
> I'm not sure my interpretation is correct. It would be nice if something
> like that should spin the hard drive. Then, you could know it wasn't
> dead.
>
>>> (2) Is there any evidence of burning anywhere?
>>
>> Nope.
>
> OK. Too bad.
>
>>> (3) Was there any noise after the replacement power supply was
>>> plugged in just before things went dead-- like the sound of an
>>> electric chair or something?
>>
>> Nope. It was quiet. All was - and still IS - Quiet, on the
>> Western Front.
>
> Hmm. It seems strange that nothing at all would happen-- not even dying
> words (which always are true) or a last gasp!

Not if the power supply doesn't get the "good to go" signal (from some PS_ON
control IC, that presumably got initially destroyed) to turn it fully on.

Of course, I haven't done a close inspection of all the components on the
MB - I can always do that when I replace it. No rush now.

Actually, I'm kinda lucky in one sense that it worked out this way, as
otherwise I might have destroyed some other things, like the disk drives
and/or PCI cards, if the power supply did turn on and stay on long enough to
damage everything connected to it.

I'm not totally sure that didn't happen, but I'm pretty sure (as I was able
to put power on one of the drives separately, and I heard it power up and
run)

>>>> But one is on its way.
>>>
>>> Very good.
>>
>> I hope so.
>> More below...
>>
>>>>> By the way, in that last thread in which we were speaking (Inbox
>>>>> contents simply vanished), I tried 3 times to post a response to
>>>>> your latest-- but it would post! It wasn't much of anything,
>>>>> though-- we were both just about done & beginning to repeat.
>>>>
>>>> Why did it vanish?
>>>
>>> I don't know whether my 3 posts got through & vanished or just never
>>> got through. They are in my Sent Items folder, but I never saw them
>>> in the thread. It wasn't the problem of reaching the size limit of a
>>> thread segment I never got that message. I thought it might be an
>>> early sign of XP-poisoning on your part. However, I think MEB or
>>> someone once reported he couldn't post to me in a certain thread--
>>> so it couldn't be that!
>>>
>>>> BTW, I never heard back from you on why you didn't like the
>>>> convenience of the Tax programs instead of a spreadsheet on your
>>>> computer (not on the web!). See, it fills out (and can print) the
>>>> forms for you, and you can even efile if you want. And it's all on
>>>> your computer after you install the program.
>>>
>>> That's the thread I'm speaking of! I couldn't post my answer to
>>> that-- but it was pretty much the same as I posted earlier, anyhow.
>>
>> Well, I thought you didn't answer it because you had thought the tax
>> programs were online, but they're not (well, some are, but I never use
>> those). You can do it ALL on your own computer (you get a CD to
>> install the program, and it does all the work for you.
>
> I think (but have never tried it) I could do that now at an IRS site (at
> least the federal site)-- but I choose not to do it. I did what I could
> with MSWorks Spreadsheet-- & I'm waiting patiently for my economic
> stimulus check now! I believe I get the full $600.00!

NICE!!

> --
> Thanks or Good Luck,
> There may be humor in this post, and,
> Naturally, you will not sue,
> Should things get worse after this,
> PCR
> pcrrcp@netzero.net

PCR · Apr 23, 2008

|>>>
|>>> Uhuh. That part was a success. But earplugs would have been better!
|>>>
|>>>> Actually, I just tested the power supply with a voltmeter (finally
|>>>> found the Dell wiring diagram), and found it's still ok. So -
|>>>> the MB is hosed.
|>>>
|>>> I guess I must agree. If the old one tests well & is plugged as it
|>>> was before, it should work as before, I think. Either the MB is
|>>> gone or some smaller component on it that gets power first is gone.
|>>
|>> Most of those components (and ICs) are soldered in, and I bet
|>> several were blown, due to the miswired power supply (putting the
|>> wrong voltages on the wrong pins).
|>> So it's not practical replacing the individual components. These
|>> old motherboards aren't all that expensive anyways.
|>
|> I see. Yea, that gets worse to consider multiple components may be
|> wrecked, & I see there is no sign of singeing anywhere. And I
|> personally would suspect I could be doing more damage than existed
|> in the first place, if soldering is involved! In fact, I wouldn't
|> want to do a whole MB, either. That sounds as tough or worse than a
|> power supply, even! Sheesh-- but keep at it! You have no choice! Get
|> that Win98 working!
|>
|>>> But I'm afraid I know little or nothing about this.
|>>>
|>>> (1) Do all the peripherals such as the hard drives require the MB
|>>> to work to get any sound out of them?
|>>
|>> The problem was that after the MB is fried it can prevent the power
|>> supply from working, because the power supply gets a turn-on signal
|>> from the MB when you push the power switch ON. (the on switch is not
|>> directly wired to the power supply).
|>> So if that signal isn't seen and recognized anymore, you get no
|>> power from the power supply, because it's still off, but waiting
|>> for that signal.
|>
|> Damn. So, just going by that...
|>
|> (a) The motherboard could be dead.
|> (b) The original power supply could be dead.
|>
|> I know you tested the power supply with a voltmeter & found it to be
|> good. I wonder...
|>
|> Can it be the MB is also actually still good, & that the surge was
|> passed along to the hard drive(s)?
|
| No, cause it didn't even POST. Just ... nothing (although I did
| hear a very faint click when I turned it on)

Alright. I'm actually in over my head on this topic. I suppose there
would be a post even with a dead or disconnected hard drive. I do have
these files on C:\...

Directory of C:\
BC04 OBJ 184,333 02-09-00 10:29a BC04.OBJ
BIOS EXE 45,056 03-31-00 11:13a BIOS.exe
BIOS INI 76 03-30-00 12:31p BIOS.ini

But, judging from the contents of the .ini (just these two lines)...

PRODUCT=Samsung 8x DVD-ROM Drive
COMMAND=c:\fromdos bc04.obj /run

They seem to relate to the DC-ROM only.

|> Can it be the hard drive that is
|> dead? I can't seem to find it, but didn't someone in this thread
|> post a way to check that... maybe he said to plug in just the hard
|> drive & touch something to the chassis? Wait, it was philo, & he
|> said...
|>
|> ......Quote philo............
|> I assume it's an ATX you are asking about.
|> If it's an ATX supply just touch the green wire to the chassis.
|>
|> I advise keeping one harddrive connected to it since it's a
|> 'switching' type supply and may require some load to run.
|>
|> If it does not even turn on or power a HD it's dead of course...
|> but even if it powers the drive...I'd still check the other voltages
|> as it could still be defective of course.
|
| I checked the voltages and the power supply (at least) seems ok. So
| at least something is left.

Yea. OK.

|> BTW: If the PSU smells burned or if there's a capacitor rattling
|> around inside...
|> you need not go any further <G>
|> ......EOQ.......................
|>
|> I'm not sure my interpretation is correct. It would be nice if
|> something like that should spin the hard drive. Then, you could know
|> it wasn't dead.
|>
|>>> (2) Is there any evidence of burning anywhere?
|>>
|>> Nope.
|>
|> OK. Too bad.
|>
|>>> (3) Was there any noise after the replacement power supply was
|>>> plugged in just before things went dead-- like the sound of an
|>>> electric chair or something?
|>>
|>> Nope. It was quiet. All was - and still IS - Quiet, on the
|>> Western Front.
|>
|> Hmm. It seems strange that nothing at all would happen-- not even
|> dying words (which always are true) or a last gasp!
|
| Not if the power supply doesn't get the "good to go" signal (from
| some PS_ON control IC, that presumably got initially destroyed) to
| turn it fully on.

OK. You've said it twice & I'm sure I've heard it before too. That's
good enough now. Yet... I'm still wondering why there was no bang (& not
even a whimper)... when that fatally pinned replacement power supply was
first connected. It doesn't seem right that a MB could die w/o a sound
at the hands of a power supply!

| Of course, I haven't done a close inspection of all the components on
| the MB - I can always do that when I replace it. No rush now.

Right. Hopefully, all will be over when that is connected. I see you &
philo have discussed BIOS & USB considerations in the other thread.
Also, your CMOS battery was discussed.

Remember Candlin? He was big on replacing the CMOS battery first thing
when a computer went dead, IIRC. Could be you might try that in the
meantime.

| Actually, I'm kinda lucky in one sense that it worked out this way, as
| otherwise I might have destroyed some other things, like the disk
| drives and/or PCI cards, if the power supply did turn on and stay on
| long enough to damage everything connected to it.

I think things would/should have been quite noisy, if a lot of stuff got
wrecked.

| I'm not totally sure that didn't happen, but I'm pretty sure (as I
| was able to put power on one of the drives separately, and I heard it
| power up and run)

Alright! That's that, then-- the hard drive is fine! Very good!

|>>>> But one is on its way.
|>>>
|>>> Very good.
|>>
|>> I hope so.
|>> More below...
|>>
|>>>>> By the way, in that last thread in which we were speaking (Inbox
|>>>>> contents simply vanished), I tried 3 times to post a response to
|>>>>> your latest-- but it would post! It wasn't much of anything,
|>>>>> though-- we were both just about done & beginning to repeat.
|>>>>
|>>>> Why did it vanish?
|>>>
|>>> I don't know whether my 3 posts got through & vanished or just
|>>> never got through. They are in my Sent Items folder, but I never
|>>> saw them in the thread. It wasn't the problem of reaching the size
|>>> limit of a thread segment I never got that message. I thought it
|>>> might be an early sign of XP-poisoning on your part. However, I
|>>> think MEB or someone once reported he couldn't post to me in a
|>>> certain thread-- so it couldn't be that!
|>>>
|>>>> BTW, I never heard back from you on why you didn't like the
|>>>> convenience of the Tax programs instead of a spreadsheet on your
|>>>> computer (not on the web!). See, it fills out (and can print)
|>>>> the forms for you, and you can even efile if you want. And it's
|>>>> all on your computer after you install the program.
|>>>
|>>> That's the thread I'm speaking of! I couldn't post my answer to
|>>> that-- but it was pretty much the same as I posted earlier, anyhow.
|>>
|>> Well, I thought you didn't answer it because you had thought the tax
|>> programs were online, but they're not (well, some are, but I never
|>> use those). You can do it ALL on your own computer (you get a
|>> CD to install the program, and it does all the work for you.
|>
|> I think (but have never tried it) I could do that now at an IRS site
|> (at least the federal site)-- but I choose not to do it. I did what
|> I could with MSWorks Spreadsheet-- & I'm waiting patiently for my
|> economic stimulus check now! I believe I get the full $600.00!
|
| NICE!!

Yea.

|> --
|> Thanks or Good Luck,
|> There may be humor in this post, and,
|> Naturally, you will not sue,
|> Should things get worse after this,
|> PCR
|> pcrrcp@netzero.net

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
Should things get worse after this,
PCR
pcrrcp@netzero.net

Bill in Co. · Apr 23, 2008

PCR wrote:
> Bill in Co. wrote:
>> PCR wrote:
>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ...snip
>>>>>>>>>> Actually, it "seems" this was a "blessing" in disguise, as I
>>>>>>>>>> just tried "upgrading" my Win98 Dell's power supply to a
>>>>>>>>>> quieter one, and, due to Dell's proprietary pin layouts, now
>>>>>>>>>> have a dead MB. Ironically, I bought one of those "quiet power
>>>>>>>>>> supply" replacements (even with some special Dell connectors)
>>>>>>>>>> in the hopes of quieting that PC down. It is VERY quiet now,
>>>>>>>>>> as in .... completely dead.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You KILLED your Win98! Ohhhh! It's the XP-irradiation
>>>>>>>>> responsible! It demented you and cajoled you & made you plug in
>>>>>>>>> a poison, purple power supply to match the color of your
>>>>>>>>> irradiated toes! I KNEW it would happen! Ohhhhhh!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, I'm not done with it yet! I found and ordered an exact
>>>>>>>> replacement MB from eBay, so wish me luck!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good luck-- absolutely! Get that Win98 back!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But I am a bit pissed - this old Dell and its damn proprietary
>>>>>>>> connector wiring, Bah Humbug!.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In truth, that was fairly brave of you to try replacing a power
>>>>>>> supply. I hope never to have to do it!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did it to quiet that PC down (it is noticeably noiser than the
>>>>>> new one). Now it's .... VERY VERY quiet!

>>>>>
>>>>> Uhuh. That part was a success. But earplugs would have been better!
>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, I just tested the power supply with a voltmeter (finally
>>>>>> found the Dell wiring diagram), and found it's still ok. So -
>>>>>> the MB is hosed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess I must agree. If the old one tests well & is plugged as it
>>>>> was before, it should work as before, I think. Either the MB is
>>>>> gone or some smaller component on it that gets power first is gone.
>>>>
>>>> Most of those components (and ICs) are soldered in, and I bet
>>>> several were blown, due to the miswired power supply (putting the
>>>> wrong voltages on the wrong pins).
>>>> So it's not practical replacing the individual components. These
>>>> old motherboards aren't all that expensive anyways.
>>>
>>> I see. Yea, that gets worse to consider multiple components may be
>>> wrecked, & I see there is no sign of singeing anywhere. And I
>>> personally would suspect I could be doing more damage than existed
>>> in the first place, if soldering is involved! In fact, I wouldn't
>>> want to do a whole MB, either. That sounds as tough or worse than a
>>> power supply, even! Sheesh-- but keep at it! You have no choice! Get
>>> that Win98 working!
>>>
>>>>> But I'm afraid I know little or nothing about this.
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) Do all the peripherals such as the hard drives require the MB
>>>>> to work to get any sound out of them?
>>>>
>>>> The problem was that after the MB is fried it can prevent the power
>>>> supply from working, because the power supply gets a turn-on signal
>>>> from the MB when you push the power switch ON. (the on switch is not
>>>> directly wired to the power supply).
>>>> So if that signal isn't seen and recognized anymore, you get no
>>>> power from the power supply, because it's still off, but waiting
>>>> for that signal.
>>>
>>> Damn. So, just going by that...
>>>
>>> (a) The motherboard could be dead.
>>> (b) The original power supply could be dead.
>>>
>>> I know you tested the power supply with a voltmeter & found it to be
>>> good. I wonder...
>>>
>>> Can it be the MB is also actually still good, & that the surge was
>>> passed along to the hard drive(s)?
>>
>> No, cause it didn't even POST. Just ... nothing (although I did
>> hear a very faint click when I turned it on)
>
> Alright. I'm actually in over my head on this topic. I suppose there
> would be a post even with a dead or disconnected hard drive. I do have
> these files on C:\...
>
> Directory of C:\
> BC04 OBJ 184,333 02-09-00 10:29a BC04.OBJ
> BIOS EXE 45,056 03-31-00 11:13a BIOS.exe
> BIOS INI 76 03-30-00 12:31p BIOS.ini
>
> But, judging from the contents of the .ini (just these two lines)...
>
> PRODUCT=Samsung 8x DVD-ROM Drive
> COMMAND=c:\fromdos bc04.obj /run
>
> They seem to relate to the DC-ROM only.
>
>>> Can it be the hard drive that is
>>> dead? I can't seem to find it, but didn't someone in this thread
>>> post a way to check that... maybe he said to plug in just the hard
>>> drive & touch something to the chassis? Wait, it was philo, & he
>>> said...
>>>
>>> ......Quote philo............
>>> I assume it's an ATX you are asking about.
>>> If it's an ATX supply just touch the green wire to the chassis.
>>>
>>> I advise keeping one harddrive connected to it since it's a
>>> 'switching' type supply and may require some load to run.
>>>
>>> If it does not even turn on or power a HD it's dead of course...
>>> but even if it powers the drive...I'd still check the other voltages
>>> as it could still be defective of course.
>>
>> I checked the voltages and the power supply (at least) seems ok. So
>> at least something is left.

>
> Yea. OK.
>
>>> BTW: If the PSU smells burned or if there's a capacitor rattling
>>> around inside...
>>> you need not go any further <G>
>>> ......EOQ.......................
>>>
>>> I'm not sure my interpretation is correct. It would be nice if
>>> something like that should spin the hard drive. Then, you could know
>>> it wasn't dead.
>>>
>>>>> (2) Is there any evidence of burning anywhere?
>>>>
>>>> Nope.
>>>
>>> OK. Too bad.
>>>
>>>>> (3) Was there any noise after the replacement power supply was
>>>>> plugged in just before things went dead-- like the sound of an
>>>>> electric chair or something?
>>>>
>>>> Nope. It was quiet. All was - and still IS - Quiet, on the
>>>> Western Front.
>>>
>>> Hmm. It seems strange that nothing at all would happen-- not even
>>> dying words (which always are true) or a last gasp!
>>
>> Not if the power supply doesn't get the "good to go" signal (from
>> some PS_ON control IC, that presumably got initially destroyed) to
>> turn it fully on.
>
> OK. You've said it twice & I'm sure I've heard it before too. That's
> good enough now. Yet... I'm still wondering why there was no bang (& not
> even a whimper)... when that fatally pinned replacement power supply was
> first connected. It doesn't seem right that a MB could die w/o a sound
> at the hands of a power supply!

Not necessarily. An IC (integrated circuit) chip or transistor, etc, can
die silently with incorrect voltages. Of course, if one wanted to, one
could "up" the voltages even more, and under the right conditions, blow it
literally apart (like blow its case off). THEN you would hear it.

>> Of course, I haven't done a close inspection of all the components on
>> the MB - I can always do that when I replace it. No rush now.

>
> Right. Hopefully, all will be over when that is connected. I see you &
> philo have discussed BIOS & USB considerations in the other thread.
> Also, your CMOS battery was discussed.
>
> Remember Candlin? He was big on replacing the CMOS battery first thing
> when a computer went dead, IIRC. Could be you might try that in the
> meantime.
>
>> Actually, I'm kinda lucky in one sense that it worked out this way, as
>> otherwise I might have destroyed some other things, like the disk
>> drives and/or PCI cards, if the power supply did turn on and stay on
>> long enough to damage everything connected to it.
>
> I think things would/should have been quite noisy, if a lot of stuff got
> wrecked.

IC's (integrated circuits), and most of the electronics, can quite often go
out silently, unless, say, it is severely over-voltaged (like enough to
literally blow it apart). And of course the wrong polarity on (for
example) some electrolytic capacitors can, in some instances, blow it apart.

But fans (with over-voltage) would make a lot of noise. Probably also true
for a hard drive.

>> I'm not totally sure that didn't happen, but I'm pretty sure (as I
>> was able to put power on one of the drives separately, and I heard it
>> power up and run)
>
> Alright! That's that, then-- the hard drive is fine! Very good!
>
>>>>>> But one is on its way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Very good.
>>>>
>>>> I hope so.
>>>> More below...
>>>>
>>>>>>> By the way, in that last thread in which we were speaking (Inbox
>>>>>>> contents simply vanished), I tried 3 times to post a response to
>>>>>>> your latest-- but it would post! It wasn't much of anything,
>>>>>>> though-- we were both just about done & beginning to repeat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why did it vanish?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know whether my 3 posts got through & vanished or just
>>>>> never got through. They are in my Sent Items folder, but I never
>>>>> saw them in the thread. It wasn't the problem of reaching the size
>>>>> limit of a thread segment I never got that message. I thought it
>>>>> might be an early sign of XP-poisoning on your part. However, I
>>>>> think MEB or someone once reported he couldn't post to me in a
>>>>> certain thread-- so it couldn't be that!
>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW, I never heard back from you on why you didn't like the
>>>>>> convenience of the Tax programs instead of a spreadsheet on your
>>>>>> computer (not on the web!). See, it fills out (and can print)
>>>>>> the forms for you, and you can even efile if you want. And it's
>>>>>> all on your computer after you install the program.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's the thread I'm speaking of! I couldn't post my answer to
>>>>> that-- but it was pretty much the same as I posted earlier, anyhow.
>>>>
>>>> Well, I thought you didn't answer it because you had thought the tax
>>>> programs were online, but they're not (well, some are, but I never
>>>> use those). You can do it ALL on your own computer (you get a
>>>> CD to install the program, and it does all the work for you.
>>>
>>> I think (but have never tried it) I could do that now at an IRS site
>>> (at least the federal site)-- but I choose not to do it. I did what
>>> I could with MSWorks Spreadsheet-- & I'm waiting patiently for my
>>> economic stimulus check now! I believe I get the full $600.00!
>>
>> NICE!!
>
> Yea.
>
>>> --
>>> Thanks or Good Luck,
>>> There may be humor in this post, and,
>>> Naturally, you will not sue,
>>> Should things get worse after this,
>>> PCR
>>> pcrrcp@netzero.net
>
> --
> Thanks or Good Luck,
> There may be humor in this post, and,
> Naturally, you will not sue,
> Should things get worse after this,
> PCR
> pcrrcp@netzero.net

PCR · Apr 25, 2008

|>
|> Yea. OK.
|>
|>>> BTW: If the PSU smells burned or if there's a capacitor rattling
|>>> around inside...
|>>> you need not go any further <G>
|>>> ......EOQ.......................
|>>>
|>>> I'm not sure my interpretation is correct. It would be nice if
|>>> something like that should spin the hard drive. Then, you could
|>>> know it wasn't dead.
|>>>
|>>>>> (2) Is there any evidence of burning anywhere?
|>>>>
|>>>> Nope.
|>>>
|>>> OK. Too bad.
|>>>
|>>>>> (3) Was there any noise after the replacement power supply was
|>>>>> plugged in just before things went dead-- like the sound of an
|>>>>> electric chair or something?
|>>>>
|>>>> Nope. It was quiet. All was - and still IS - Quiet, on the
|>>>> Western Front.
|>>>
|>>> Hmm. It seems strange that nothing at all would happen-- not even
|>>> dying words (which always are true) or a last gasp!
|>>
|>> Not if the power supply doesn't get the "good to go" signal (from
|>> some PS_ON control IC, that presumably got initially destroyed) to
|>> turn it fully on.
|>
|> OK. You've said it twice & I'm sure I've heard it before too. That's
|> good enough now. Yet... I'm still wondering why there was no bang (&
|> not even a whimper)... when that fatally pinned replacement power
|> supply was first connected. It doesn't seem right that a MB could
|> die w/o a sound at the hands of a power supply!
|
| Not necessarily. An IC (integrated circuit) chip or transistor,
| etc, can die silently with incorrect voltages. Of course, if one
| wanted to, one could "up" the voltages even more, and under the right
| conditions, blow it literally apart (like blow its case off). THEN
| you would hear it.

All right. I'm sure you are right. The 3 noisy experiences I've had were
unrelated to the MB...

Hard drive crash Had to be replaced & has a rattle now.
CD-ROM crash Worked fine 3/so days later,
after I got the CD out of it.
Speakers Smaller ones blew up! The originals
worked fine when replugged & still do.

|>> Of course, I haven't done a close inspection of all the components
|>> on the MB - I can always do that when I replace it. No rush now.
|>>

|>
|> Right. Hopefully, all will be over when that is connected. I see you
|> & philo have discussed BIOS & USB considerations in the other thread.
|> Also, your CMOS battery was discussed.
|>
|> Remember Candlin? He was big on replacing the CMOS battery first
|> thing when a computer went dead, IIRC. Could be you might try that
|> in the meantime.

You didn't answer this. Candlin seemed knowledeable most of the time,
though also often inordinantly ornery. If a new battery comes with the
new MB, it might be worth a shot just to replace that as a first try.

|>> Actually, I'm kinda lucky in one sense that it worked out this way,
|>> as otherwise I might have destroyed some other things, like the disk
|>> drives and/or PCI cards, if the power supply did turn on and stay on
|>> long enough to damage everything connected to it.
|>
|> I think things would/should have been quite noisy, if a lot of stuff
|> got wrecked.
|
| IC's (integrated circuits), and most of the electronics, can quite
| often go out silently, unless, say, it is severely over-voltaged
| (like enough to literally blow it apart). And of course the wrong
| polarity on (for example) some electrolytic capacitors can, in some
| instances, blow it apart.
|
| But fans (with over-voltage) would make a lot of noise. Probably
| also true for a hard drive.

All right. I said I was in over my head.

|>> I'm not totally sure that didn't happen, but I'm pretty sure (as I
|>> was able to put power on one of the drives separately, and I heard
|>> it power up and run)
|>
|> Alright! That's that, then-- the hard drive is fine! Very good!
|>
|>>>>>> But one is on its way.
|>>>>>
|>>>>> Very good.
|>>>>
|>>>> I hope so.
|>>>> More below...
|>>>>
|>>>>>>> By the way, in that last thread in which we were speaking
|>>>>>>> (Inbox contents simply vanished), I tried 3 times to post a
|>>>>>>> response to your latest-- but it would post! It wasn't much of
|>>>>>>> anything, though-- we were both just about done & beginning to
|>>>>>>> repeat.
|>>>>>>
|>>>>>> Why did it vanish?
|>>>>>
|>>>>> I don't know whether my 3 posts got through & vanished or just
|>>>>> never got through. They are in my Sent Items folder, but I never
|>>>>> saw them in the thread. It wasn't the problem of reaching the
|>>>>> size limit of a thread segment I never got that message. I
|>>>>> thought it might be an early sign of XP-poisoning on your part.
|>>>>> However, I think MEB or someone once reported he couldn't post
|>>>>> to me in a certain thread-- so it couldn't be that!
|>>>>>
|>>>>>> BTW, I never heard back from you on why you didn't like the
|>>>>>> convenience of the Tax programs instead of a spreadsheet on your
|>>>>>> computer (not on the web!). See, it fills out (and can print)
|>>>>>> the forms for you, and you can even efile if you want. And
|>>>>>> it's all on your computer after you install the program.
|>>>>>
|>>>>> That's the thread I'm speaking of! I couldn't post my answer to
|>>>>> that-- but it was pretty much the same as I posted earlier,
|>>>>> anyhow.
|>>>>
|>>>> Well, I thought you didn't answer it because you had thought the
|>>>> tax programs were online, but they're not (well, some are, but I
|>>>> never use those). You can do it ALL on your own computer (you
|>>>> get a CD to install the program, and it does all the work for you.
|>>>
|>>> I think (but have never tried it) I could do that now at an IRS
|>>> site (at least the federal site)-- but I choose not to do it. I
|>>> did what I could with MSWorks Spreadsheet-- & I'm waiting
|>>> patiently for my economic stimulus check now! I believe I get the
|>>> full $600.00!
|>>
|>> NICE!!
|>
|> Yea.
|>
|>>> --
|>>> Thanks or Good Luck,
|>>> There may be humor in this post, and,
|>>> Naturally, you will not sue,
|>>> Should things get worse after this,
|>>> PCR
|>>> pcrrcp@netzero.net
|>
|> --
|> Thanks or Good Luck,
|> There may be humor in this post, and,
|> Naturally, you will not sue,
|> Should things get worse after this,
|> PCR
|> pcrrcp@netzero.net

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
Should things get worse after this,
PCR
pcrrcp@netzero.net

Bill in Co. · Apr 25, 2008

PCR wrote:
> Bill in Co. wrote:
>> PCR wrote:
>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> PCR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ...snip
>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, it "seems" this was a "blessing" in disguise, as I
>>>>>>>>>>>> just tried "upgrading" my Win98 Dell's power supply to a
>>>>>>>>>>>> quieter one, and, due to Dell's proprietary pin layouts, now
>>>>>>>>>>>> have a dead MB. Ironically, I bought one of those "quiet
>>>>>>>>>>>> power supply" replacements (even with some special Dell
>>>>>>>>>>>> connectors) in the hopes of quieting that PC down. It is
>>>>>>>>>>>> VERY quiet now, as in .... completely dead.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You KILLED your Win98! Ohhhh! It's the XP-irradiation
>>>>>>>>>>> responsible! It demented you and cajoled you & made you plug
>>>>>>>>>>> in a poison, purple power supply to match the color of your
>>>>>>>>>>> irradiated toes! I KNEW it would happen! Ohhhhhh!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, I'm not done with it yet! I found and ordered an
>>>>>>>>>> exact replacement MB from eBay, so wish me luck!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good luck-- absolutely! Get that Win98 back!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But I am a bit pissed - this old Dell and its damn proprietary
>>>>>>>>>> connector wiring, Bah Humbug!.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In truth, that was fairly brave of you to try replacing a power
>>>>>>>>> supply. I hope never to have to do it!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I did it to quiet that PC down (it is noticeably noiser than the
>>>>>>>> new one). Now it's .... VERY VERY quiet!

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Uhuh. That part was a success. But earplugs would have been
>>>>>>> better!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually, I just tested the power supply with a voltmeter
>>>>>>>> (finally found the Dell wiring diagram), and found it's still
>>>>>>>> ok. So - the MB is hosed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess I must agree. If the old one tests well & is plugged as
>>>>>>> it was before, it should work as before, I think. Either the MB
>>>>>>> is gone or some smaller component on it that gets power first is
>>>>>>> gone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most of those components (and ICs) are soldered in, and I bet
>>>>>> several were blown, due to the miswired power supply (putting the
>>>>>> wrong voltages on the wrong pins).
>>>>>> So it's not practical replacing the individual components.
>>>>>> These old motherboards aren't all that expensive anyways.
>>>>>
>>>>> I see. Yea, that gets worse to consider multiple components may be
>>>>> wrecked, & I see there is no sign of singeing anywhere. And I
>>>>> personally would suspect I could be doing more damage than existed
>>>>> in the first place, if soldering is involved! In fact, I wouldn't
>>>>> want to do a whole MB, either. That sounds as tough or worse than a
>>>>> power supply, even! Sheesh-- but keep at it! You have no choice!
>>>>> Get that Win98 working!
>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I'm afraid I know little or nothing about this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (1) Do all the peripherals such as the hard drives require the MB
>>>>>>> to work to get any sound out of them?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem was that after the MB is fried it can prevent the
>>>>>> power supply from working, because the power supply gets a
>>>>>> turn-on signal from the MB when you push the power switch ON.
>>>>>> (the on switch is not directly wired to the power supply).
>>>>>> So if that signal isn't seen and recognized anymore, you get no
>>>>>> power from the power supply, because it's still off, but waiting
>>>>>> for that signal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Damn. So, just going by that...
>>>>>
>>>>> (a) The motherboard could be dead.
>>>>> (b) The original power supply could be dead.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know you tested the power supply with a voltmeter & found it to
>>>>> be good. I wonder...
>>>>>
>>>>> Can it be the MB is also actually still good, & that the surge was
>>>>> passed along to the hard drive(s)?
>>>>
>>>> No, cause it didn't even POST. Just ... nothing (although I did
>>>> hear a very faint click when I turned it on)
>>>
>>> Alright. I'm actually in over my head on this topic. I suppose there
>>> would be a post even with a dead or disconnected hard drive. I do
>>> have these files on C:\...
>>>
>>> Directory of C:\
>>> BC04 OBJ 184,333 02-09-00 10:29a BC04.OBJ
>>> BIOS EXE 45,056 03-31-00 11:13a BIOS.exe
>>> BIOS INI 76 03-30-00 12:31p BIOS.ini
>>>
>>> But, judging from the contents of the .ini (just these two lines)...
>>>
>>> PRODUCT=Samsung 8x DVD-ROM Drive
>>> COMMAND=c:\fromdos bc04.obj /run
>>>
>>> They seem to relate to the DC-ROM only.
>>>
>>>>> Can it be the hard drive that is
>>>>> dead? I can't seem to find it, but didn't someone in this thread
>>>>> post a way to check that... maybe he said to plug in just the hard
>>>>> drive & touch something to the chassis? Wait, it was philo, & he
>>>>> said...
>>>>>
>>>>> ......Quote philo............
>>>>> I assume it's an ATX you are asking about.
>>>>> If it's an ATX supply just touch the green wire to the chassis.
>>>>>
>>>>> I advise keeping one harddrive connected to it since it's a
>>>>> 'switching' type supply and may require some load to run.
>>>>>
>>>>> If it does not even turn on or power a HD it's dead of course...
>>>>> but even if it powers the drive...I'd still check the other
>>>>> voltages as it could still be defective of course.
>>>>
>>>> I checked the voltages and the power supply (at least) seems ok.
>>>> So at least something is left.

>>>
>>> Yea. OK.
>>>
>>>>> BTW: If the PSU smells burned or if there's a capacitor rattling
>>>>> around inside...
>>>>> you need not go any further <G>
>>>>> ......EOQ.......................
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure my interpretation is correct. It would be nice if
>>>>> something like that should spin the hard drive. Then, you could
>>>>> know it wasn't dead.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> (2) Is there any evidence of burning anywhere?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>
>>>>> OK. Too bad.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> (3) Was there any noise after the replacement power supply was
>>>>>>> plugged in just before things went dead-- like the sound of an
>>>>>>> electric chair or something?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope. It was quiet. All was - and still IS - Quiet, on the
>>>>>> Western Front.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm. It seems strange that nothing at all would happen-- not even
>>>>> dying words (which always are true) or a last gasp!
>>>>
>>>> Not if the power supply doesn't get the "good to go" signal (from
>>>> some PS_ON control IC, that presumably got initially destroyed) to
>>>> turn it fully on.
>>>
>>> OK. You've said it twice & I'm sure I've heard it before too. That's
>>> good enough now. Yet... I'm still wondering why there was no bang (&
>>> not even a whimper)... when that fatally pinned replacement power
>>> supply was first connected. It doesn't seem right that a MB could
>>> die w/o a sound at the hands of a power supply!
>>
>> Not necessarily. An IC (integrated circuit) chip or transistor,
>> etc, can die silently with incorrect voltages. Of course, if one
>> wanted to, one could "up" the voltages even more, and under the right
>> conditions, blow it literally apart (like blow its case off). THEN
>> you would hear it.
>
> All right. I'm sure you are right. The 3 noisy experiences I've had were
> unrelated to the MB...
>
> Hard drive crash Had to be replaced & has a rattle now.
> CD-ROM crash Worked fine 3/so days later,
> after I got the CD out of it.
> Speakers Smaller ones blew up! The originals
> worked fine when replugged & still do.

But all of those have some mechanical components (which can move and make
noise), which explains why. Purely electronic components (resistors,
capacitors, transistors, ICs, etc, etc) are normally silent nothing "moves"
in there (except electrons). Hence, no noise (under MOST circumstances -
an exception being if you blow it apart with quite excessive voltage).

>>>> Of course, I haven't done a close inspection of all the components
>>>> on the MB - I can always do that when I replace it. No rush now.
>>>>

>>>
>>> Right. Hopefully, all will be over when that is connected. I see you
>>> & philo have discussed BIOS & USB considerations in the other thread.
>>> Also, your CMOS battery was discussed.
>>>
>>> Remember Candlin? He was big on replacing the CMOS battery first
>>> thing when a computer went dead, IIRC. Could be you might try that
>>> in the meantime.
>
> You didn't answer this. Candlin seemed knowledeable most of the time,
> though also often inordinantly ornery. If a new battery comes with the
> new MB, it might be worth a shot just to replace that as a first try.

I was pretty sure it wasn't that, due to NOTHING happening at all (including
anything on the monitor, or power anywhere). ZERO, nada. (And I'm
pretty sure a dead CMOS battery can't do that by itself when the unit is
plugged in).

UDPATE:
Now I know I'm sure, because I just got the motherboard today, installed it,
and I'm up and running. Hooray!

>>>> Actually, I'm kinda lucky in one sense that it worked out this way,
>>>> as otherwise I might have destroyed some other things, like the disk
>>>> drives and/or PCI cards, if the power supply did turn on and stay on
>>>> long enough to damage everything connected to it.
>>>
>>> I think things would/should have been quite noisy, if a lot of stuff
>>> got wrecked.
>>
>> IC's (integrated circuits), and most of the electronics, can quite
>> often go out silently, unless, say, it is severely over-voltaged
>> (like enough to literally blow it apart). And of course the wrong
>> polarity on (for example) some electrolytic capacitors can, in some
>> instances, blow it apart.
>>
>> But fans (with over-voltage) would make a lot of noise. Probably
>> also true for a hard drive.
>
> All right. I said I was in over my head.

And both of the above have mechanical components (things that can move to
make some noise).

>>>> I'm not totally sure that didn't happen, but I'm pretty sure (as I
>>>> was able to put power on one of the drives separately, and I heard
>>>> it power up and run)
>>>
>>> Alright! That's that, then-- the hard drive is fine! Very good!
>
Everything is fine now, as I've replaced the motherboard, and am up and
running!

PCR · Apr 26, 2008

Bill in Co. wrote:
| PCR wrote:

....snip
|>>>>> Hmm. It seems strange that nothing at all would happen-- not even
|>>>>> dying words (which always are true) or a last gasp!
|>>>>
|>>>> Not if the power supply doesn't get the "good to go" signal (from
|>>>> some PS_ON control IC, that presumably got initially destroyed) to
|>>>> turn it fully on.
|>>>
|>>> OK. You've said it twice & I'm sure I've heard it before too.
|>>> That's good enough now. Yet... I'm still wondering why there was
|>>> no bang (& not even a whimper)... when that fatally pinned
|>>> replacement power supply was first connected. It doesn't seem
|>>> right that a MB could die w/o a sound at the hands of a power
|>>> supply!
|>>
|>> Not necessarily. An IC (integrated circuit) chip or transistor,
|>> etc, can die silently with incorrect voltages. Of course, if one
|>> wanted to, one could "up" the voltages even more, and under the
|>> right conditions, blow it literally apart (like blow its case off).
|>> THEN you would hear it.
|>
|> All right. I'm sure you are right. The 3 noisy experiences I've had
|> were unrelated to the MB...
|>
|> Hard drive crash Had to be replaced & has a rattle now.
|> CD-ROM crash Worked fine 3/so days later,
|> after I got the CD out of it.
|> Speakers Smaller ones blew up! The originals
|> worked fine when replugged & still do.
|
| But all of those have some mechanical components (which can move and
| make noise), which explains why. Purely electronic components
| (resistors, capacitors, transistors, ICs, etc, etc) are normally
| silent nothing "moves" in there (except electrons). Hence, no
| noise (under MOST circumstances - an exception being if you blow it
| apart with quite excessive voltage).

Understood. OK. I guess I was thinking really of electric arcing.

|>>>> Of course, I haven't done a close inspection of all the components
|>>>> on the MB - I can always do that when I replace it. No rush now.
|>>>>

|>>>
|>>> Right. Hopefully, all will be over when that is connected. I see
|>>> you & philo have discussed BIOS & USB considerations in the other
|>>> thread. Also, your CMOS battery was discussed.
|>>>
|>>> Remember Candlin? He was big on replacing the CMOS battery first
|>>> thing when a computer went dead, IIRC. Could be you might try that
|>>> in the meantime.
|>
|> You didn't answer this. Candlin seemed knowledeable most of the time,
|> though also often inordinantly ornery. If a new battery comes with
|> the new MB, it might be worth a shot just to replace that as a first
|> try.
|
| I was pretty sure it wasn't that, due to NOTHING happening at all
| (including anything on the monitor, or power anywhere). ZERO,
| nada. (And I'm pretty sure a dead CMOS battery can't do that by
| itself when the unit is plugged in).

Yea. It didn't seem very likely really.

| UDPATE:
| Now I know I'm sure, because I just got the motherboard today,
| installed it, and I'm up and running. Hooray!

Yow! Well done! Win98 lives again!

....snip
|>> But fans (with over-voltage) would make a lot of noise. Probably
|>> also true for a hard drive.
|>
|> All right. I said I was in over my head.
|
| And both of the above have mechanical components (things that can
| move to make some noise).

OK.

|>>>> I'm not totally sure that didn't happen, but I'm pretty sure (as I
|>>>> was able to put power on one of the drives separately, and I heard
|>>>> it power up and run)
|>>>
|>>> Alright! That's that, then-- the hard drive is fine! Very good!
|>
| Everything is fine now, as I've replaced the motherboard, and am up
| and running!

I'm overjoyed! Good going!

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
Should things get worse after this,
PCR
pcrrcp@netzero.net

Bill in Co. · Apr 26, 2008

PCR wrote:
> Bill in Co. wrote:
>> PCR wrote:
>
> ...snip
>>>>>>> Hmm. It seems strange that nothing at all would happen-- not even
>>>>>>> dying words (which always are true) or a last gasp!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not if the power supply doesn't get the "good to go" signal (from
>>>>>> some PS_ON control IC, that presumably got initially destroyed) to
>>>>>> turn it fully on.
>>>>>
>>>>> OK. You've said it twice & I'm sure I've heard it before too.
>>>>> That's good enough now. Yet... I'm still wondering why there was
>>>>> no bang (& not even a whimper)... when that fatally pinned
>>>>> replacement power supply was first connected. It doesn't seem
>>>>> right that a MB could die w/o a sound at the hands of a power
>>>>> supply!
>>>>
>>>> Not necessarily. An IC (integrated circuit) chip or transistor,
>>>> etc, can die silently with incorrect voltages. Of course, if one
>>>> wanted to, one could "up" the voltages even more, and under the
>>>> right conditions, blow it literally apart (like blow its case off).
>>>> THEN you would hear it.
>>>
>>> All right. I'm sure you are right. The 3 noisy experiences I've had
>>> were unrelated to the MB...
>>>
>>> Hard drive crash Had to be replaced & has a rattle now.
>>> CD-ROM crash Worked fine 3/so days later,
>>> after I got the CD out of it.
>>> Speakers Smaller ones blew up! The originals
>>> worked fine when replugged & still do.
>>
>> But all of those have some mechanical components (which can move and
>> make noise), which explains why. Purely electronic components
>> (resistors, capacitors, transistors, ICs, etc, etc) are normally
>> silent nothing "moves" in there (except electrons). Hence, no
>> noise (under MOST circumstances - an exception being if you blow it
>> apart with quite excessive voltage).
>
> Understood. OK. I guess I was thinking really of electric arcing.

True - that makes noise, but that takes a pretty decent amount of voltage
(and a lot of current flows when it arcs!).

>>>>>> Of course, I haven't done a close inspection of all the components
>>>>>> on the MB - I can always do that when I replace it. No rush now.
>>>>>>

>>>>>
>>>>> Right. Hopefully, all will be over when that is connected. I see
>>>>> you & philo have discussed BIOS & USB considerations in the other
>>>>> thread. Also, your CMOS battery was discussed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remember Candlin? He was big on replacing the CMOS battery first
>>>>> thing when a computer went dead, IIRC. Could be you might try that
>>>>> in the meantime.
>>>
>>> You didn't answer this. Candlin seemed knowledeable most of the time,
>>> though also often inordinantly ornery. If a new battery comes with
>>> the new MB, it might be worth a shot just to replace that as a first
>>> try.
>>
>> I was pretty sure it wasn't that, due to NOTHING happening at all
>> (including anything on the monitor, or power anywhere). ZERO,
>> nada. (And I'm pretty sure a dead CMOS battery can't do that by
>> itself when the unit is plugged in).
>
> Yea. It didn't seem very likely really.
>
>> UDPATE:
>> Now I know I'm sure, because I just got the motherboard today,
>> installed it, and I'm up and running. Hooray!
>
> Yow! Well done! Win98 lives again!
>
>
> ...snip
>>>> But fans (with over-voltage) would make a lot of noise. Probably
>>>> also true for a hard drive.
>>>
>>> All right. I said I was in over my head.
>>
>> And both of the above have mechanical components (things that can
>> move to make some noise).
>
> OK.
>
>>>>>> I'm not totally sure that didn't happen, but I'm pretty sure (as I
>>>>>> was able to put power on one of the drives separately, and I heard
>>>>>> it power up and run)
>>>>>
>>>>> Alright! That's that, then-- the hard drive is fine! Very good!
>>>
>> Everything is fine now, as I've replaced the motherboard, and am up
>> and running!
>
> I'm overjoyed! Good going!

Thanks. Me too! Now I'm getting back to what I was originally working
on - making it quieter. But NOT as quiet as it has been over the last few
days!

PCR · Apr 26, 2008

Bill in Co. wrote:
| PCR wrote:
|> Bill in Co. wrote:
|>> PCR wrote:
|>
|> ...snip
|>>>>>>> Hmm. It seems strange that nothing at all would happen-- not
|>>>>>>> even dying words (which always are true) or a last gasp!
|>>>>>>
|>>>>>> Not if the power supply doesn't get the "good to go" signal
|>>>>>> (from some PS_ON control IC, that presumably got initially
|>>>>>> destroyed) to turn it fully on.
|>>>>>
|>>>>> OK. You've said it twice & I'm sure I've heard it before too.
|>>>>> That's good enough now. Yet... I'm still wondering why there was
|>>>>> no bang (& not even a whimper)... when that fatally pinned
|>>>>> replacement power supply was first connected. It doesn't seem
|>>>>> right that a MB could die w/o a sound at the hands of a power
|>>>>> supply!
|>>>>
|>>>> Not necessarily. An IC (integrated circuit) chip or transistor,
|>>>> etc, can die silently with incorrect voltages. Of course, if
|>>>> one wanted to, one could "up" the voltages even more, and under
|>>>> the right conditions, blow it literally apart (like blow its case
|>>>> off). THEN you would hear it.
|>>>
|>>> All right. I'm sure you are right. The 3 noisy experiences I've had
|>>> were unrelated to the MB...
|>>>
|>>> Hard drive crash Had to be replaced & has a rattle now.
|>>> CD-ROM crash Worked fine 3/so days later,
|>>> after I got the CD out of it.
|>>> Speakers Smaller ones blew up! The originals
|>>> worked fine when replugged & still do.
|>>
|>> But all of those have some mechanical components (which can move and
|>> make noise), which explains why. Purely electronic components
|>> (resistors, capacitors, transistors, ICs, etc, etc) are normally
|>> silent nothing "moves" in there (except electrons). Hence, no
|>> noise (under MOST circumstances - an exception being if you blow it
|>> apart with quite excessive voltage).
|>
|> Understood. OK. I guess I was thinking really of electric arcing.
|
| True - that makes noise, but that takes a pretty decent amount of
| voltage (and a lot of current flows when it arcs!).

You are the former electrician who would know, Colorado. I'v replaced
light fictures, & I've changed electric sockets from 2 to 3 prong.
Sitting right on top of it & feeling the shock, that did make noise too
without moving parts other than my finger & flying wires when I got the
wires wrong. But it's much bigger than the stuff on circuit boards.

....snip
|>> Everything is fine now, as I've replaced the motherboard, and am up
|>> and running!
|>
|> I'm overjoyed! Good going!
|
| Thanks. Me too! Now I'm getting back to what I was originally
| working on - making it quieter. But NOT as quiet as it has been
| over the last few days!

Ah, ha, ha! I suppose it was really is the fan on the power supply that
is noisy. Can't you get just that?

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
Should things get worse after this,
PCR
pcrrcp@netzero.net

Life after Windows 98SE

rpgs rock dvds

John Dulak

rpgs rock dvds

pixturesk@gmail.com

Gary S. Terhune

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Bill in Co.

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PCR

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Bill in Co.

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