- Thread starter
- #141
X
xfile
>I wasn't asking for advice,[...]
I meant to say that my original post was meant to be a advise for the Linux
community.
As for ERP and SAP, that is exactly true and it's the buying decision
process and has nothing to do with technical improvements on the products.
Why technical professionals and CIO are not playing the primary role until
at a later stage? That's exactly why Linux community needs to think about
it and why I brought it up in the first place.
You have a good one too.
"norm" <noone@afakeddomain.net> wrote in message
news:OEbFmUCwHHA.4332@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> xfile wrote:
>> We can go on like this forever since I feel you didn't understand the
>> context.
> I was trying to understand the points you were trying to make, that is why
> I asked the questions I did. I wasn't asking for advice, so I will just
> leave it. Have a good one.
>>
>> Final point: Technology makes things happened, and maybe even better, but
>> people don't buy technology. Do you know what technologies are embedded
>> in iPhone and how many tempted to buy one know or even care to find out?
>>
>> If Linux community doesn't bother to understand how and why people buy
>> products, you are fighting a losing war.
>>
>> Consider what I said is a free advice, take it or leave it. That's all.
>>
>>
>>
>> "norm" <noone@afakeddomain.net> wrote in message
>> news:uT9HEl$vHHA.3508@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>> xfile wrote:
>>>>> What % of new Linux users have never owned a computer?
>>>>> What % of new Windows users have never owned a computer?
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the average computer experience of a new Windows user?
>>>>> What is the average computer experience of a new Linux user?
>>>>
>>>> I can't help - so I apologize to all first
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jupiter Jones presented some logical and reasonable questions for Linux
>>>> community to think about though you may not wish to answer here but
>>>> Linux advocates cannot afford to ignore those questions, if Linux
>>>> really wants to be a valid "mainstream" alternative.
>>>>
>>>> I meant to write a longer post but decided to make a long story short:
>>>>
>>>> (1) If Linux is going to be a mainstream alternative, the community has
>>>> to address those issues such as usability (not with your standards),
>>>> application and driver availabilities, just to name a few. Note:
>>>> Customers and users won't care about the reasons for not having enough,
>>>> and all they care is what are given.
>>> Please expound on the "issues such as usability (not with your
>>> standards)" statement. What "standards" are you referring to? As to
>>> applications and driver availabilities, where do these need to emanate
>>> from, if not already available in open source? If a program is
>>> proprietary and not ported to linux, does the fault lie with linux? If a
>>> hardware manufacturer will not provide a linux driver or the source code
>>> to linux so that a driver might be coded, does the fault lie with linux?
>>>> (2) Price is one factor but not the only one. People pay for car
>>>> insurance knowing (and hoping) they don't use it for most of the time,
>>>> but still, they're willing to pay for it. It's the same logic for many
>>>> are willing to buy products and sometime with support even they don't
>>>> really use it. Sense of security is one of those factors. We all know
>>>> search engines and communities are our friends, but I for one won't
>>>> count on search engines and communities as our supports. The point
>>>> is - price is not the only factor and refer to (1) for some other
>>>> considerations.
>>> Please consider the following in terms of your above statement. "Free"
>>> in the open source community really isn't addressing the issue of cost.
>>> It addresses the issue of freedom, as in freedom of use. An argument
>>> becomes less so if one is arguing about the wrong concept.
>>> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html for reading on the issue.
>>> "Free software is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the
>>> concept, you should think of free as in free speech, not as in free
>>> beer."
>>> Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy,
>>> distribute, study, change and improve the software. More precisely, it
>>> refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of the software:
>>> * The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
>>> * The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your
>>> needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
>>> * The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor
>>> (freedom 2).
>>> * The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements
>>> to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access
>>> to the source code is a precondition for this.
>>>
>>>> Let me try for the last time by using two examples to demonstrate
>>>> "technology" may not be relevant in some buying decisions, and one is
>>>> in IT industry and the other one is in automobile industry:
>>>>
>>>> (1) ERP: SAP is the market leader of enterprise resources planning
>>>> software (ERP is the common term) and when it and its partners engage a
>>>> prospect (usually enterprise-level customers), they always start with
>>>> senior business executives. Anyone has any experience on ERP would
>>>> know the complexity of the software, and yet, if senior executives
>>>> cannot comprehend the use of it in NON-TECHNICAL terms, none is going
>>>> to spend multimillions US dollars on the software. Technologies and
>>>> software specs won't even be discussed if the first evaluation won't
>>>> pass.
>>> If the above is true, it would seem unlikely that there would ever be
>>> ANY technological improvements made if everything had to go through the
>>> senior business execs first. Why have the need for people who are
>>> trained and developed to evaluate what is available on the market and
>>> make recommendations/decisions on what the company needs? Why have the
>>> need for buyers that procure what is available based on recommendations
>>> they might receive?
>>>> Moral of the example: We can spend all the time we have till the end of
>>>> the world on discussing and debating technologies but it won't matter
>>>> much for the non-tech users and customers who represent the majority of
>>>> the market. In particular, Linux community hasn't really spent too much
>>>> effort in this area, if any. Until Linux community is willing to face
>>>> and accept the fact, it won't change anything in the big picture.
>>> The majority of the market is indeed unaware of choices that are
>>> available. But the awareness of more choice is on the horizon.
>>>> (2) Manual (stick-shift) vs. automatic transmission: How many people in
>>>> the US (and many parts of the world) are now driving a stick-shift even
>>>> it has a better fuel consumption and performance? Do car manufacturers
>>>> roll back to stick-shift when we are having such unbelievable high oil
>>>> prices or do they strive to come up other alternatives?
>>>>
>>>> Moral of the example: Most non-techies look for ease-of-use across all
>>>> product categories including but not limited to IT products. Again,
>>>> until Linux community is willing to face and accept it, it's not going
>>>> to be the mainstream.
>>> There have been vast strides made is ease of use concerning linux. Is it
>>> for everyone? No. But it does have far more potential for mass use than
>>> ever before.
>>>> In summary, I am not saying or implying Linux is not a good OS or Vista
>>>> is a better choice. What I have been trying to tell Linux advocates
>>>> (or technical professionals for the same matter) is - technology by
>>>> itself is not enough for people to use a product.
>>>>
>>>> Your collective efforts will have a much better return if spending on
>>>> large OEM's (e.g. Dell, IBM, HP, Acer, etc.) and application and
>>>> peripheral providers. Microsoft understood this long long long...time
>>>> ago, and I still fail to understand for why Linux community doesn't
>>>> follow a success story but insisting on a not-so-good one (a.k.a -
>>>> Apple).
>>>>
>>>> As always, just my two cents thoughts, and my last post on OS
>>>> alternative subject.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry if I offended anyone but it was not my intension.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" <jones_jupiter@hotnomail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:OBgyXvyvHHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Please clear the facts.
>>>>> What % of new Linux users have never owned a computer?
>>>>> What % of new Windows users have never owned a computer?
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the average computer experience of a new Windows user?
>>>>> What is the average computer experience of a new Linux user?
>>>>>
>>>>> Give us these facts and end the speculation.
>>>>> Many Linux advocates seem to base much of what they say on the above
>>>>> being equal for both platforms.
>>>>> I suspect these differences explain what I NEVER hear Linux advocates
>>>>> say.
>>>>>
>>>>> Waiting for your facts...
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jupiter Jones [MVP]
>>>>> http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
>>>>> http://www.dts-l.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message
>>>>> news:e4vbqoyvHHA.4132@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Larry Maturo wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Alias,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You wrote:
>>>>>>> Fact is that Windows is MUCH more susceptible than Ubuntu and, in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> unlikely case that one's Ubuntu box has become infected, all one
>>>>>>> need do
>>>>>>> is nuke the user, create another one and restore the back up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fact is, you are telling the unwashed masses to use Ubuntu. If they
>>>>>>> do, you
>>>>>>> can bet they won't have that backup. Also, if your campign
>>>>>>> succeeds, then
>>>>>>> virus, rootkit, and malware authors will start hitting Linux, so
>>>>>>> watch what you
>>>>>>> wish for.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- Larry Maturo
>>>>>> Interesting speculation. Too bad it's only that: speculation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alias
>>>>>>> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:eDCvIqwvHHA.4384@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Alias
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You are way too smug regarding how safe you believe Linux/Unix to
>>>>>>>>> be..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One of the articles below explains how a Linux system can be a
>>>>>>>>> virus carrier without the user ever knowing.. this situation is
>>>>>>>>> every bit as bad as a Windows system that has been breached.. the
>>>>>>>>> others are from different years, but all alerting to the fact that
>>>>>>>>> Linux/Unix and MAC are not 100% virus immune..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have yet to come across a 'true' Linux professional who would
>>>>>>>>> put their name to the misleading claims made by you.. your anti-MS
>>>>>>>>> stance is blinding you to the realities of ANY OS.. that makes you
>>>>>>>>> dangerous..
>>>>>>>> Care to give me proof that a Linux box has been compromised? Can't?
>>>>>>>> Didn't think so. Shall we compare the number of Windows boxes that
>>>>>>>> are a part of a bot-herd to Linux? Didn't think so.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fact is that Windows is MUCH more susceptible than Ubuntu and, in
>>>>>>>> the unlikely case that one's Ubuntu box has become infected, all
>>>>>>>> one need do is nuke the user, create another one and restore the
>>>>>>>> back up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Alias
>>>>>>>>> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:eS2gVRwvHHA.3468@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>> Richard Urban wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Alias doesn't know about the history of his operating system of
>>>>>>>>>>> choice to know that rootkits were developed for Unix and are
>>>>>>>>>>> 100% effective in Linux/Ubuntu.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yet there are no reports of this possibility happening so go
>>>>>>>>>> figure.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Alias
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> norm
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> norm
I meant to say that my original post was meant to be a advise for the Linux
community.
As for ERP and SAP, that is exactly true and it's the buying decision
process and has nothing to do with technical improvements on the products.
Why technical professionals and CIO are not playing the primary role until
at a later stage? That's exactly why Linux community needs to think about
it and why I brought it up in the first place.
You have a good one too.
"norm" <noone@afakeddomain.net> wrote in message
news:OEbFmUCwHHA.4332@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> xfile wrote:
>> We can go on like this forever since I feel you didn't understand the
>> context.
> I was trying to understand the points you were trying to make, that is why
> I asked the questions I did. I wasn't asking for advice, so I will just
> leave it. Have a good one.
>>
>> Final point: Technology makes things happened, and maybe even better, but
>> people don't buy technology. Do you know what technologies are embedded
>> in iPhone and how many tempted to buy one know or even care to find out?
>>
>> If Linux community doesn't bother to understand how and why people buy
>> products, you are fighting a losing war.
>>
>> Consider what I said is a free advice, take it or leave it. That's all.
>>
>>
>>
>> "norm" <noone@afakeddomain.net> wrote in message
>> news:uT9HEl$vHHA.3508@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>> xfile wrote:
>>>>> What % of new Linux users have never owned a computer?
>>>>> What % of new Windows users have never owned a computer?
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the average computer experience of a new Windows user?
>>>>> What is the average computer experience of a new Linux user?
>>>>
>>>> I can't help - so I apologize to all first
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jupiter Jones presented some logical and reasonable questions for Linux
>>>> community to think about though you may not wish to answer here but
>>>> Linux advocates cannot afford to ignore those questions, if Linux
>>>> really wants to be a valid "mainstream" alternative.
>>>>
>>>> I meant to write a longer post but decided to make a long story short:
>>>>
>>>> (1) If Linux is going to be a mainstream alternative, the community has
>>>> to address those issues such as usability (not with your standards),
>>>> application and driver availabilities, just to name a few. Note:
>>>> Customers and users won't care about the reasons for not having enough,
>>>> and all they care is what are given.
>>> Please expound on the "issues such as usability (not with your
>>> standards)" statement. What "standards" are you referring to? As to
>>> applications and driver availabilities, where do these need to emanate
>>> from, if not already available in open source? If a program is
>>> proprietary and not ported to linux, does the fault lie with linux? If a
>>> hardware manufacturer will not provide a linux driver or the source code
>>> to linux so that a driver might be coded, does the fault lie with linux?
>>>> (2) Price is one factor but not the only one. People pay for car
>>>> insurance knowing (and hoping) they don't use it for most of the time,
>>>> but still, they're willing to pay for it. It's the same logic for many
>>>> are willing to buy products and sometime with support even they don't
>>>> really use it. Sense of security is one of those factors. We all know
>>>> search engines and communities are our friends, but I for one won't
>>>> count on search engines and communities as our supports. The point
>>>> is - price is not the only factor and refer to (1) for some other
>>>> considerations.
>>> Please consider the following in terms of your above statement. "Free"
>>> in the open source community really isn't addressing the issue of cost.
>>> It addresses the issue of freedom, as in freedom of use. An argument
>>> becomes less so if one is arguing about the wrong concept.
>>> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html for reading on the issue.
>>> "Free software is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the
>>> concept, you should think of free as in free speech, not as in free
>>> beer."
>>> Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy,
>>> distribute, study, change and improve the software. More precisely, it
>>> refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of the software:
>>> * The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
>>> * The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your
>>> needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
>>> * The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor
>>> (freedom 2).
>>> * The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements
>>> to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access
>>> to the source code is a precondition for this.
>>>
>>>> Let me try for the last time by using two examples to demonstrate
>>>> "technology" may not be relevant in some buying decisions, and one is
>>>> in IT industry and the other one is in automobile industry:
>>>>
>>>> (1) ERP: SAP is the market leader of enterprise resources planning
>>>> software (ERP is the common term) and when it and its partners engage a
>>>> prospect (usually enterprise-level customers), they always start with
>>>> senior business executives. Anyone has any experience on ERP would
>>>> know the complexity of the software, and yet, if senior executives
>>>> cannot comprehend the use of it in NON-TECHNICAL terms, none is going
>>>> to spend multimillions US dollars on the software. Technologies and
>>>> software specs won't even be discussed if the first evaluation won't
>>>> pass.
>>> If the above is true, it would seem unlikely that there would ever be
>>> ANY technological improvements made if everything had to go through the
>>> senior business execs first. Why have the need for people who are
>>> trained and developed to evaluate what is available on the market and
>>> make recommendations/decisions on what the company needs? Why have the
>>> need for buyers that procure what is available based on recommendations
>>> they might receive?
>>>> Moral of the example: We can spend all the time we have till the end of
>>>> the world on discussing and debating technologies but it won't matter
>>>> much for the non-tech users and customers who represent the majority of
>>>> the market. In particular, Linux community hasn't really spent too much
>>>> effort in this area, if any. Until Linux community is willing to face
>>>> and accept the fact, it won't change anything in the big picture.
>>> The majority of the market is indeed unaware of choices that are
>>> available. But the awareness of more choice is on the horizon.
>>>> (2) Manual (stick-shift) vs. automatic transmission: How many people in
>>>> the US (and many parts of the world) are now driving a stick-shift even
>>>> it has a better fuel consumption and performance? Do car manufacturers
>>>> roll back to stick-shift when we are having such unbelievable high oil
>>>> prices or do they strive to come up other alternatives?
>>>>
>>>> Moral of the example: Most non-techies look for ease-of-use across all
>>>> product categories including but not limited to IT products. Again,
>>>> until Linux community is willing to face and accept it, it's not going
>>>> to be the mainstream.
>>> There have been vast strides made is ease of use concerning linux. Is it
>>> for everyone? No. But it does have far more potential for mass use than
>>> ever before.
>>>> In summary, I am not saying or implying Linux is not a good OS or Vista
>>>> is a better choice. What I have been trying to tell Linux advocates
>>>> (or technical professionals for the same matter) is - technology by
>>>> itself is not enough for people to use a product.
>>>>
>>>> Your collective efforts will have a much better return if spending on
>>>> large OEM's (e.g. Dell, IBM, HP, Acer, etc.) and application and
>>>> peripheral providers. Microsoft understood this long long long...time
>>>> ago, and I still fail to understand for why Linux community doesn't
>>>> follow a success story but insisting on a not-so-good one (a.k.a -
>>>> Apple).
>>>>
>>>> As always, just my two cents thoughts, and my last post on OS
>>>> alternative subject.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry if I offended anyone but it was not my intension.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" <jones_jupiter@hotnomail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:OBgyXvyvHHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Please clear the facts.
>>>>> What % of new Linux users have never owned a computer?
>>>>> What % of new Windows users have never owned a computer?
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the average computer experience of a new Windows user?
>>>>> What is the average computer experience of a new Linux user?
>>>>>
>>>>> Give us these facts and end the speculation.
>>>>> Many Linux advocates seem to base much of what they say on the above
>>>>> being equal for both platforms.
>>>>> I suspect these differences explain what I NEVER hear Linux advocates
>>>>> say.
>>>>>
>>>>> Waiting for your facts...
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jupiter Jones [MVP]
>>>>> http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
>>>>> http://www.dts-l.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message
>>>>> news:e4vbqoyvHHA.4132@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Larry Maturo wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Alias,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You wrote:
>>>>>>> Fact is that Windows is MUCH more susceptible than Ubuntu and, in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> unlikely case that one's Ubuntu box has become infected, all one
>>>>>>> need do
>>>>>>> is nuke the user, create another one and restore the back up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fact is, you are telling the unwashed masses to use Ubuntu. If they
>>>>>>> do, you
>>>>>>> can bet they won't have that backup. Also, if your campign
>>>>>>> succeeds, then
>>>>>>> virus, rootkit, and malware authors will start hitting Linux, so
>>>>>>> watch what you
>>>>>>> wish for.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- Larry Maturo
>>>>>> Interesting speculation. Too bad it's only that: speculation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alias
>>>>>>> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:eDCvIqwvHHA.4384@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Alias
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You are way too smug regarding how safe you believe Linux/Unix to
>>>>>>>>> be..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One of the articles below explains how a Linux system can be a
>>>>>>>>> virus carrier without the user ever knowing.. this situation is
>>>>>>>>> every bit as bad as a Windows system that has been breached.. the
>>>>>>>>> others are from different years, but all alerting to the fact that
>>>>>>>>> Linux/Unix and MAC are not 100% virus immune..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have yet to come across a 'true' Linux professional who would
>>>>>>>>> put their name to the misleading claims made by you.. your anti-MS
>>>>>>>>> stance is blinding you to the realities of ANY OS.. that makes you
>>>>>>>>> dangerous..
>>>>>>>> Care to give me proof that a Linux box has been compromised? Can't?
>>>>>>>> Didn't think so. Shall we compare the number of Windows boxes that
>>>>>>>> are a part of a bot-herd to Linux? Didn't think so.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fact is that Windows is MUCH more susceptible than Ubuntu and, in
>>>>>>>> the unlikely case that one's Ubuntu box has become infected, all
>>>>>>>> one need do is nuke the user, create another one and restore the
>>>>>>>> back up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Alias
>>>>>>>>> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:eS2gVRwvHHA.3468@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>> Richard Urban wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Alias doesn't know about the history of his operating system of
>>>>>>>>>>> choice to know that rootkits were developed for Unix and are
>>>>>>>>>>> 100% effective in Linux/Ubuntu.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yet there are no reports of this possibility happening so go
>>>>>>>>>> figure.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Alias
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> norm
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> norm